what ever happened to the ozone layer? And the how cold/warm is it supposed to be? They know weather in the past can change very fast. And are we not still not coming out of an ice age?

Belive it or not I would have no problem passing a bill that would control gw if they could say if we cut this amount carbon from the air we will see this amount of cooling or something even close to that, no they said even if we stop all the man-made carbon we would still see a warming trend. I think they said it might slow it down for 50 years or so, and they still not sure.

As the laws stand now, any person out there that want a windmill/solar can have one. If they want electric car they can have one. Don't buy carbon products if you don't want them. With 97 percent support this should be an easy task, but why push it on others. I have a compost pile, I put my house so it get passive solar, I ve been saving for a windmill, when I build in Az it will be earth bag, my landscape is made almost all of recycled materiel, and I use only drought plantings in my garden. I write a paper every year to teach people how to save water in the city. I like the people that do, not the ones that feel guilty and force others do.
Saving the planet starts at home not at your nieghbors. 😀

Aaron,
I am not sure if you are asking Paul or I. Paul, feel free to jump in.

Ozone layer: here is a summary ( http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/04/ozone-depletion-and-global-warming/). In short, the ozone layer is recovering as a result of the Montreal accord, despite that agreement failing to account for how quickly developing countries (Brazil, China, India, Indonesia etc.) would develop. Nonetheless, it proved the concept that international treaties could make a meaningful difference.

How cold/warm is it supposed to be: do you mean how warm will it be if we do nothing? Or what the climate "should" be?
I'll assume the latter. Well, that is a philosophical question, or a religious one. I can't help you there. I can say that human civilization has developed within a fairly narrow range of temperatures. We grow certain crops in certain places. Can we change? Of course. But doing so will cause disruption. That will cost much more than the alternative--the old "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" cliche is often true. Ditto with rising sea levels. Can we move the folks in Mauritius to Arizona? Of course! but it won't be cheap.

Time lag between reducing carbon production and lessening of warming: yes, that just sucks. It like telling a long-time smoker that if they stop smoking today, their cancer risk will drop to zero by sundown. Wrong! Stopping smoking now pays dividends many years in the future. So why not just continue smoking? Instant results are all that matter.
So, we are back to philosophical/religious arguments. Do we have a responsibility to future generations?

Personal responsibility: good for you. I also do not like other people telling me what to do. I have a creek in my back yard. If I value clean waters, I will keep pollution out of it. If I don't personally care about that issue, I can dump toxic waste in it. Right? Just don't try to make me feel guilty when your kid eats a fish downstream and gets sick.

Not offended here...GW always stirs some debate and it should.

My comment was only to point out the relative
nature of peoples opinions,even last winter we kept hearing how it
was one of the warmest years on record while we froze out asses of here 😯

My point was only that after a few years of melting ice and this dang Greenland block,
the people in the middle to eastern U.S. are seeing some mighty cold winters....
at least compared to those GW warmed winters of the years prior to 2007 😉 ....
while Greenland is having record warmth in winter.

One thing I do appreciate about the last few colder winters is that our springs are
much more stable as most of the cold has been let out when it should be...in winter!

Heated debate keeps us warm in winter! 😆

Back a bit to the original topic, natural weather variability won't go away. I figure I'll get fewer extremely cold winter weather, but it won't go away.
Here are the records for this date at the Tulsa airport:
Record (KTUL) 78 °F / 26 °C (2009) -2 °F / -19 °C (1919)

So, will I beat 78 oF for this date? In a decade or so, probably yes. Will I get lower than -2 oF? Yup, eventually.
For my palms, this means that I have to be ready to protect for -2 oF or worse in any given year. It would not be much consolation for my Butia to tell it on a -2 oF morning, "this doesn't happen often" -- it would still be dead.

Aaron,
I am not sure if you are asking Paul or I. Paul, feel free to jump in.

How cold/warm is it supposed to be: do you mean how warm will it be if we do nothing? Or what the climate "should" be?
I'll assume the latter.

Do we have a responsibility to future generations?

I can dump toxic waste in it. Right? Just don't try to make me feel guilty when your kid eats a fish downstream and gets sick.

Asking just in general. 😆

Yes... it was the latter, and it is full of opinion, becuase we will never know, unless we were never here on earth.

Of cource we have a responsibility for future generations, thats why I'm speaking my mind. I would hate to see the freedom and prosperity be flushed down the drain for more laws and regulations. Part of the reason we have prosperity is becuase of our freedom. Without it we have poverty and with poverity comes pollution, starvation, loss of hope.

No... a person can't just dump toxic wast in a creek, you are right! And there is laws out there that make sence and every one should have a responsibility to follow. But our gov has a repsonsibility to keep things prospertng and keep our freedom.

Aaron, that's what makes the debate--and democracy--fun.
I also hate gov't regulations. Can I sell my eggs as organic? No, the paperwork and inspections are such a hassle. I refuse to comply. That costs me a bunch of money but I can't accept some bureaucrat telling me how to care for my hens.

I'm just saying be careful, laws are easy to pass, but hard to take away. Think about it, you cant even build a swing-set without a permit. And there is also people pushing for an all native plant law in many states, a law I was pushing for in the past becuase I thought it right for the eviroment. But even if it is, I don't think it may be right for the people, and I think we still count. 😉

Thats all I have to say, thanks....I better talk about plants. 😆

Expressing just this layman's utter disappointment that warming doesn't occur to our advantage (as palm growers).
Has some of us wishing we were around "back in the day" when palm fossils were living plants above the 49th parallel. :hmph:

One day a scientist will come up with one good thing about climate change that we can cling to.
Initially it was thought that increased CO2 might favour plants life, for instance it's been surmised that Wollemia nobilis in its long history flourished widely at a time when CO2 levels were much higher than now.
Dr. Susan B. Murch of UBC Okanagan was working on that years ago by studying W.nobilis.
Haven't seen anything published; wouldn't know where to look come to think of it.

I'm sick of the gloom and doom...
Barb

I meant the gloom and doom generally in the media.
I didn't mean here on Palms North!

Fire away ... :toothy7:

Barb

Initially it was thought that increased CO2 might favour plants life, for instance it's been surmised that Wollemia nobilis in its long history flourished widely at a time when CO2 levels were much higher than now.

I'm sick of the gloom and doom...
Barb

At my master garden class they talk about the higher level of carbon, and the relationship with plants. And yes there is science to show that the higher level do in fact help plant growth. 😀

Ok...back to the good stuff. Yesterday it got down to 10F/-12C in Sunsites/Pearce the town where my property is and my saguaros are. My zone this year is now a zone 8 and that is cold. I thought yesterdays temp was warmer, but now showing 10F/12C.
I cant wait to see how everything is after this winter.

Last year they had like a low of 14F or 12F and I seen no signs a damage other than some robustas and date palms pushing new leaves, but nothing dead. 😕

I'm sure it was even colder at my nieghbors, they always call and we talk about the weather. 😆

But I think the higher carbon level benefit--small as that may be--is offset by water deficits in areas that never had droughts such as those experienced the last few years. Hate to see those shallow mountain lakes dry up, ringed with white. Alkaline soil generally has much much lower levels of bacteria.

We know people who spend ~6 months in Scottsdale each winter; doubt they're enjoying these winters.

Maybe your neighbors can take some photos of your place and email them so you can see how everything's doing 🙂

Barb

But I think the higher carbon level benefit--small as that may be--is offset by water deficits in areas that never had droughts such as those experienced the last few years. Hate to see those shallow mountain lakes dry up, ringed with white. Alkaline soil generally has much much lower levels of bacteria.

We know people who spend ~6 months in Scottsdale each winter; doubt they're enjoying these winters.

Maybe your neighbors can take some photos of your place and email them so you can see how everything's doing 🙂

Barb

The carbon benefit was sigificant, more fertilizers off crops. How much does it help? Cant say without looking through my notes and that big MG book. I'm lazy. 😆

Probably enjoyed the winter until this cold spell. 😉

I wish they had the internet I would talk every day to them and send them pics. Also I don't know if I want them walking around my place, I planted so many small cactus I'm afraid of them stepping on them. 😆

I'll look around to see if Dr. Murch has published any research results from the Wollemi pine vis a vis CO2.
It absolutely killed me 👿 to know she had five or six W.nobilis in her lab 10 miles from my place while my name was still on the "waiting list" for one of those trees. 😆 😆

I'm afraid of them stepping on them

good point.

No internet there? Glad you're not moving there yet! :clock:
Barb

No internet there? Glad you're not moving there yet! :clock:
Barb

They have a cell phone and solar, but not sure if you can get internet there. I know they have it in town, but out where I'm at...?