Musa basjoo, let's get serious

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:20 am

We all know that new exotic gardeners in the north get a few misguided ideas from both the literature and websites (needle palm, musa basjoo, bamboo, etc.). I think that Musa basjoo might be one of the worst. We've all seen the claims that this plant can handle temperatures down to -20C with mulch. Ok. Maybe. How long was the freeze? How deep does your soil freeze?

Can we clear the air? Just how hardy do you think that basjoo is?

IMO it is able to stand PERHAPS -1 or -2C for a short time. I think that the stem could probably handle -4C as an overnight low, but, any lower and it will surely die. The 'corm', I think, can maybe handle frost... BUT, if the soil freezes around it, the corm would die. I've never been able to overwinter basjoo here without supplemental heat, even in the mildest winters, with thick mulch, and in the best microclimates (south wall of the house). The myth that the corms are hardy to temps like -10 or -20C (or whatever) must be based on short term exposure to freezing where the soil never freezes.

Thoughts?

On another tack, is anyone else going to be trying some different bananas this summer? I've got M. sikkimensis seedlings, as well as M. iterans (yunnanensis?)... I'm also thinking about getting a 'saba' if I can convince someone in the states to try to send me one!

Jova · Post by **Jova** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:57 pm

I've had basjoo clumps in the ground for 5 years here in zone 6a southern indiana, and they've always came back stronger every year. I have them on the south side of my house, right up against the foundation. In the winter, I just chop em down and put a trashbag over them, and then cover it with 8-10 inches of mulch. It doesn't get extremely cold here, a few nights here and there in the single digits, but lots of days in the teens. So I can't really say much for the overall hardiness of basjoo, but this has just been my experience, and several others in my area do the same thing and never lose them. Hope this helps!

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:18 pm

Paul, I think you're on the right track with basjoo. The foliage is certainly in jeopardy with 28ºF - 30ºF (-2ºC to -1ºC) and the entire pseudostems have held here to 25ºF (-4ºC). Given all the info and experience I've had since I first aquired these in 1994 ... zone 8a / 7b winter temps is about as far as you can go without protection / mulch etc and expect a decent rebound. Many folks apparently can grow these into the colder zones 7 and 6 with mulch or other protective measures.

I've also noticed that small or specifically tissue culture grown plants are weak. These inferior specimen need a number of years to build bulk in the root mass before attaining any hardiness level. Once established in our Pacific Northwest climate they're bullet proof as evident after the last winter '08 - '09. They're indestructable and indespensable around these parts.

Musa itinerans was a bust here as where many of the so called "hardy" types of banana. Musella (Musa) lasiocarpa has been a close second here requiring some dry insulating mulch.

Cheers, Barrie.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:43 pm

Jova wrote:I've had basjoo clumps in the ground for 5 years here in zone 6a southern indiana, and they've always came back stronger every year. I have them on the south side of my house, right up against the foundation. In the winter, I just chop em down and put a trashbag over them, and then cover it with 8-10 inches of mulch. It doesn't get extremely cold here, a few nights here and there in the single digits, but lots of days in the teens. So I can't really say much for the overall hardiness of basjoo, but this has just been my experience, and several others in my area do the same thing and never lose them. Hope this helps!

Ok. To clarify, are you in Terre haute? I was under the impression that it had record lows in the -30F range (I see a -24f for January 17th of 1997. If you've read my posts you'll see that I proponent of the 'if it's been that cold in the past it can get that cold, or colder, now!' school of thought), and that you would expect to hit -5 to -10f each winter (USDA zone 6a criteria)... I'm suprised that you are able to overwinter M. basjoo in a northern 6a with a trash bag and 10 inches of mulch! This is the sort of experience I was looking for. Do you think that the extra mulch is enough to keep the soil from freezing too deeply or that the trash bag allows air spaces to keep the stem from freezing too deeply? I assume that it must... This is interesting since it will tell you just how deep your freeze goes in a given year... Simply remove the mulch and trash bag then cut the Pstem down to green tissue!!! Now, the trash bag might give some 'extra' protection, but it is certainly not that much of a help!

How large are your Pstems when you uncover them?

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:47 pm

Paul,
You saw my pictures they where under two feet of leaves and hay (no heat) and the bottom of the trunks are very solid. There is no way the ground froze under them though. They where exposed to 23-24f before I covered them too. The leaves stayed fairly intact with minor burn around 28f if I recall correct,
with minor tree cover. That's all I know.

This year I'll be trying to over winter Raja puri, Lasiocarpa, and velutina. I might leave in my giant sikkimensis but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

Bill

Jova · Post by **Jova** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:31 pm

Paul, I'm near Terre Haute, about 30 miles southwest. And as far as temperature around here, yes, we have had cold snaps well below 0 in the past, but not that I remember in the past few years since I've been into this hobby, and the really cold weather is usually just overnight and doesn't last for days on end, which I've heard is the real plant killer. I've always felt like the area that I live in may be in some sort of microclimate, because many times I notice big differences between the weather here, and in nearby areas. For instance, all of the tender plants at my parents' house only 10 miles away were killed off by frost 2-3 weeks earlier this past winter than what mine were. Also, I grow everything within 5 feet from my house, on the south and east sides, and I feel that this is the biggest reason why I've had good luck with my basjoos. Also, our winters these past few years have been much milder than what I remember when I was a kid. This year I tried a different method of protection on my largest basjoo clump. I didn't chop the pstems down at all, just cut off all the leaves and built a huge leaf enclosure over the entire stems (about 5 feet tall, and yes, that was a job!) I was attempting to see if I could overwinter the entire pstem, but as the leaf enclosure settled over the winter, the top 1 foot or so of the pstems was exposed and killed, but in a few weeks I'll be removing the enclosure to see what amount of the pstems made it through. And one more thing, I got my basjoos from a friend who had been growing them in this area for years, so perhaps mine could be slightly more hardy than one that was ordered in from a warmer area (?) Anyways, hope this helps!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:54 pm

The temps they quote for Basjoos,whatever,that are underground mean nothing unless the plant was unmulched.
A guy on e-bay claims Itinerans will survive 0(F)and they may,if it is a short duration and the soil doesn't freeze more than an inch or two down.

I agree that,if the corms freeze,they are goners.

Speaking of Itinerans,they seem like a much better option than Basjoo if you want size(height),
I will be trying 2 of these this summer.
They are fascinating even as pups,with only 5 leaves one of mine is already 2' tall.
You can see that they really stretch out into some serious height as they grow,up to 35-40' from what I understand!

Should be a fun one to try.
I won't try to over winter this winter, unless they get ridiculously tall- and they just might!

Jova · Post by **Jova** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:41 pm

Jim, now you've got me going on these Itinerans:) Doesn't seem to be very popular, and I found little information on these when I did a google search. I'd like to try a couple of them this year though... Do you have any links or info on where I could buy some of these? I've got basjoos all over the place now, and have been thinking of trying some other bananas anyways. Thanks in advance!

Eric

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:21 am

I have 2 seedling plants that I bought as M. iterans, which, unfortunately, are most likely Musa yunnanensis (similar, but smaller, and potentially hardy). I'll check my M. velutina this weekend... I am NOT holding out much hope for it. It was small (maybe 4 feet high) and is known to be less hardy than basjoo... Not a good combination.

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:10 am

Nice thing about Musa velutina is it's fairly small size. A good candidate for container cultivation.

Cheers, Barrie.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:01 am

Jova wrote:Jim, now you've got me going on these Itinerans:) Doesn't seem to be very popular, and I found little information on these when I did a google search. I'd like to try a couple of them this year though... Do you have any links or info on where I could buy some of these? I've got basjoos all over the place now, and have been thinking of trying some other bananas anyways. Thanks in advance!

Eric

They have not been available long.
The guy I got them from says they are for sure Itinerans.
Good price for small plants,I bought 2 and combined shipping.

Seller is on E-bay,of course-heres the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT