What do you guys think?

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:04 pm

In April, I'm heading down to the Birmingham, AL farmer's market and loading up a trailer full of palms. I'm going to be picking up the following:

(2) HC Sabal Palmetto
(2) Large Trachycarpus Fortunei
(2) Bismarkia Nobilis
(7) Good sized sabal minors

I'm going nuts in my front yard and planting all these. It's gonna look like something from down south when I'm done. I'll accent it with musa basjoo and elephant ears. There is a good sized maple in the middle that I want to cut down by the wife won't let me, so I'll have to work around it. I'll plant 4 of the sabal minors under it.

My question is, do you think there's a flying chance in hell that I can mulch the sabal minors with 3 feet of crushed leaves in the fall, tarp them with clear poly and leave them til spring? I don't want to heat all that, so I'm hoping if I get some decently sized sabal minors, I can just mulch them deep enough to prevent the ground from freezing...

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:30 am

I think palms coming from down south would need at LEAST a year to acclimate.
I think also that if you don't want to heat you should use leaf cages,you have to really pack the leaves in there and build it out 2 feet from the far edge of the plants leaves.
I did this on my Needle palm and it came through a winter(last) with a low of -17(F)so,I would say it works!
It also needs to be kept dry with some kind of lid on top but besides the cage material and your labor,it's FREE!

turtile · Post by **turtile** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:20 pm

If you plant Sabal minor against the foundation of the house, you should be good. Use a cover that allows gas exchange but prevents sunlight from entering. Don't use clear plastic.

I'd also make sure you can find where the seed for the Sabal minor originated. A lot of the plants sold in the SE US come from FL. The Sabal minor from FL are less hardy and don't grow as fast or big as more northern ecotypes.

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:33 pm

Bismarkia doesn't stand a snowballs chance, even with extensive protection.

Cheers, Barrie.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:53 pm

Best of luck to ya. Post lotrs of pics.

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:55 am

Barrie wrote:Bismarkia doesn't stand a snowballs chance, even with extensive protection.

Cheers, Barrie.

Why? Growing Robusta up here just fine and Bismarkia is only slightly less hardy. They will be kept above freezing in the winter at all times.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:00 am

wxman wrote:
Barrie wrote:Bismarkia doesn't stand a snowballs chance, even with extensive protection.

Cheers, Barrie.
Why? Growing Robusta up here just fine and Bismarkia is only slightly less hardy. They will be kept above freezing in the winter at all times.

Bismarkia can be KILLED by 25f (listed as marginally hardy to 27f), so it is MUCH less hardy than Washingtonia (22f), which recovers quickly from damage. The only way you're going to keep it alive is if you're able to keep it above freezing, which, based on your protection schemes, seems like a possibility! I say go for it, as long as the palm is cheap and you don't lose your cool over any failure... I'd like to see you try Pheonix theo. since it should be hardier than your Washy, and is IMHO a much more attractive palm!!!

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:52 am

Paul Ont wrote:
wxman wrote:
Barrie wrote:Bismarkia doesn't stand a snowballs chance, even with extensive protection.

Cheers, Barrie.
Why? Growing Robusta up here just fine and Bismarkia is only slightly less hardy. They will be kept above freezing in the winter at all times.
Bismarkia can be KILLED by 25f (listed as marginally hardy to 27f), so it is MUCH less hardy than Washingtonia (22f), which recovers quickly from damage. The only way you're going to keep it alive is if you're able to keep it above freezing, which, based on your protection schemes, seems like a possibility! I say go for it, as long as the palm is cheap and you don't lose your cool over any failure... I'd like to see you try Pheonix theo. since it should be hardier than your Washy, and is IMHO a much more attractive palm!!!

What's a Phoenix theo?

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am

Phoenix Sylvester is most likely your your best bet for price/hardiness. You can pick up some giant ones down south for very reasonable.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:00 am

I have to agree about Bismarckia although there is a part of me that would like the challenge!
Could it be done? Yes,if your willing to protect it on a grand scale and I do mean GRAND!
I have actually been rethinking even doing Washys because of the amount of effort needed and their cold hardiness limits.
The thing with Washys is the payoff during the summer as they do grow so fast.
Bismarckia grows as wide(sometimes wider) than it does tall!
I think you will find that when the number of palms your trying gets to 10-15-20 it gets a little overwhelming.
If you have the free time DO IT!
Look at (ASSUMING YOU COULD DO THIS)some pictures of Bizzy's this is one that is very impractical.
If your going to do it anyway

you will need to put in as much effort to protect the roots( exstensive use of heating cables,a ton of mulch)I think in theory it could be done but-
Your more likely to lose this through the roots system.You would also need to keep it dry (starting in late Sept and in the spring as they don't like moisture and cold) this would be difficult to do and still get it established over 3 years-

I have between 25-30 Palms-and 25-30 cactus they are small. Every year I consider saying f&#%@ it!-when I hassle with the lights/heat/plastic on the G-house and the W/storms.
Every year I'm glad I did it-but man it can be some work-and my palms are small.....right now!

Good luck Wx

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:45 am

http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/photos/Sp ... hrasti.htm

Phoenix theophrasti, Cretan date palm, hardiest of the date palms (maybe acaulis will prove to be hardier?)... It's one of those 'hardiest of the genus' type things... Like most Phoenix it needs heat to grow well, but it would be a cake walk to protect compared to a Washy, but I would imagine the summer growth wouldn't be as good... Anayway, I've heard reports of the following temperatures for lows: 12f, 16f (seems the safe lower limit), and -12C (10f).

I've got seeds coming (which will probably rot), so in a couple years I may give it a test... I don't know if anyone is selling plants of this species...

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:52 am

Those are hardier then the Sylvester but not likely very obtainable in bigger sizes. I wouldn't worry a ton about saving 5 degree's hardiness since they'll be covered anyways. I know they'll have that palm at the farmers market too. How big of a trailer do you have Wx?

Bill

Laaz · Post by **Laaz** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:13 pm

Why? Growing Robusta up here just fine and Bismarkia is only slightly less hardy

Bizzys will not tolerate any cold moisture. Believe me I have tried them here & none have made it. Our lows only get down to low 20's.

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Laaz wrote:
Why? Growing Robusta up here just fine and Bismarkia is only slightly less hardy
Bizzys will not tolerate any cold moisture. Believe me I have tried them here & none have made it. Our lows only get down to low 20's.

I agree and even more to the point, I had a reasonable sized one pack it in with temps in the upper 30'sF (4C) with out any trouble. They're certainly not "slightly less hardy" than Washingtonia robusta.
If you're looking for the silver blue look, go with Brahea armata, again needing extensive protection in your climate, but much hardier than Bismarkia noblis.

Cheers, Barrie.

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:54 pm

I agree with Barrie, armata brahea is much hardier. You could also try to get a chamaerops humilis ceferia (SP?) which is hardier than brahea armata.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:51 pm

I concur, on the Chamearops humilis. I've tried two, with minimal winter protection. The silver variety was from an expensive 1 gallon pot and did not make it. The larger (5 gallon) was a cheap HD purchase and is starting its 3rd winter. I mulch it heavily and put a 20-gallon bucket over it for the worst weather. This year I have heat tape as a supplement as it is finally forming a trunk.
So, my advice is to pick up a 15 gallon C. humilis when you are down south and plan to protect it with heat tape, Christmas lights and cover.
I bought a 1 gallon Brahea armata when I bought the silver C. humilis. I still have it in a pot, although by now a larger one. It is growing well, but I bring it indoors each winter. I plan to keep doing that for a few more years until it is really big. I hope to get a Bizzy some day, but it will be a permanent pot specimen here in Oklahoma.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:58 pm

Med fan palms are really tough buggers for sure. I have a pretty nice one that laughed at 24, I might move it to a better location so I can enjoy it more next year.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:20 pm

Yea wx,Cerifera is a great palm.I have one that took 12(F) no problem,if kept dry,dry.dry.
This brings up one of the difficulties of getting these palms that need to be dry during cold established.
Bismarckia will be a challenge that I don't think is worth the effort at least a Washy can regrow some lost mass during a hot enough summer-
so it may recover from winter damage once or twice.
It can be done(Bizzy) if you don't mind building a G-house over it for winter.
I would love to have a Bizzy in my yard but I'm thinking even Washys will be enough of a pain in the a$$.
Some of the palms being mentioned although cold hardy DO NOT recover in time to fight through another winter.
I think this needs to be the final point to consider when choosing what you want to grow.

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