palm planting how late can I do

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:50 am

I'm sure it would be best to have some root growth before the cold sets in but how late would it be feasible for me to plant?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:36 am

You could plant it now,I planted a T.wag in Dec with major protection and it is doing fine. You will need to protect it and heat I'm sure.It could be done.If it's a large palm or one your really attached to you may want to wait-It's a little bit of a gamble but it surly could be done.

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Spring is defintely optimal for planting palms.There are exceptions as Jim stated in previous post.

John

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:13 pm

I would wait too. My friend gave me a really nice true takil grown from seed in 2000 about a month ago and I waited on that. It has a foot or so trunk with a small palm growing off the side. I transplanted it to a 30 gal from a 15 or so. What a nice palm thats going to be, it's lime green color. He also gave me a good sized greensboro hardy trachy which is way different than standard. I'll post pictures if anyone is interesed.

Bill

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:26 pm

Yes, Bill post away.

Thanks for the reply palm folk.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:19 am

Here's some of those pictures of the palms my friend gave me. It was really nice of him these are some pretty cool palms.

Takil grown from seed in 2000, with a friend growing off the side. This picture dose nothing for how nice this palms colors are. It's planted in a 30 gallon vented pot from a root bound 10 gallon. It started to grow as soon as I transplanted it.

Here's the Greensboro NC Trachy, you can tell this one is going to have nice shape. It's planted in the 10 gallon pot from the Takil. Regular Trachy from Fla a little smaller to compare.

Here's a regular Needle in a 7 gallon pot, there are 7 little needles palms in there.

Here's 3 3 gallon Trachy latisectus that will be nice to have when there big.

And last but not least 5 palmettos in 5 gallon pots and 5 minors in 3 gallon pots. In the back ground is the start to next years new banana groves there about 60 little ones just moved to 3 gallon pots.

Thanks for looking,
Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:39 am

Bill,great pics.Thanks for posting them.
If your really interested in Trachycarpus you might enjoy looking at the European Palm Forum,they have been growing these for longer then we have in the states and there is a lot of info about them,Martin Gibbons post's on there sometimes and I think you might enjoy reading about Takil,Latisectus and some of the other Trachys.You could try a searce for Takil or whatever for more info.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:52 am

Thanks Jim! I'm sure they have some great info on there site. I will most definitely register. My girlfriend starts teaching again next week so I will have more time to read stuff.

Thanks again,
Bill

hilashes · Post by **hilashes** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:01 am

Great pics Bill! also you'll have a nice banana grove next year!

Heidi

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:39 pm

Wow, Bill, what a great selection and sizes.

Bet you'll separate those 7 needles soon; they'll explode with growth in their own pots or in ground.

And holy cow, you'll be competing with Dole pretty soon.

Well done.

Are palms going into that raised brick-fronted planter? Wow, that'd look good!

Barb

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:04 pm

The planter has a bunch of stuff in it already. 2 Clevland select pear trees, a brown turkey fig, lavender, hibiscus, lirope evergreen grass, and a bunch of other stuff. So I'm not sure what I'm doing with them, I'll find a spot in spring.

Bill

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:19 pm

So I'm not sure what I'm doing with them, I'll find a spot in spring

Typical comment from a palm nut...we all fit into that category!

Barb

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:18 pm

Beautiful palms. Nice banana grove too. I gather you'll keep the bananas inside till next year as well?

I must research Trachycarpus a bit more. I'm happy with my Trachycarpus f. seedlings but sound like they could be a fortunei x waggy cross that Joe sent me. Now I'm beginning to wonder but it was at least three years ago.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:55 am

Hey Jim,
How'd your Nainital do this summer? (now that I remember the name!)

Did you post pics somewhere?
Barb

macario · Post by **macario** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:14 pm

wow I forgot about this board for a while long time no see barb, jim and everyone else

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:55 pm

Hey Barb,Naini Tal has done great it has put out 7 new leaves and is working on 8!The S.louisiana has come back strong also with three new leaves.Pretty amazing for any palm,let alone one (Naini Tal)that had spear pull last Nov and totally defoliated.Heres a link,double click on pick and scroll forward.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/alb ... 1390bitwcP

Mike good to hear from you again!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:02 am

Nice work as always Jim! Did I see you wrote that your washys crooked? I hope not.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:45 am

Yea,I did not mulch around the base enough and only had maybe 6-7" of space around them so......
I remember measuring the soil temp right next to them,it was like 34F and I think a few more inchs away the ground probably froze.I also cut all the leaves off but really I think the combo of frozen ground and a very wet/cool spring did them in.
If you have larger Washys I would suggest protecting the ground out to the drip line with leaves/mulch. A couple (2') feet of leaves(they will pack down) or a foot of mulch.
I have a Washy and B.eriospatha that I will protect(with their leaves on)this year,I will use styrofoam boxes with c-7 x-mas lights and removable tops this time.

I think you said your GDD is 3040?
I think that our microclimates provide extra warmth but when you look at Washys needing 5000-5600,even as fast as they grow,you really have to heep as many leaves on them through winter as possible.
I guees we will need to keep tweaking our protection if we want Washys in our yard this far north,makes for quite a challenge.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:48 am

Hi Mike, nice to see you.
Got some pics of how your palms fared this summer?

Jim that NainiTal looks fabulous. You won the bet...yours did better than mine, and mine was indoors!

It's been said 100 times before but I'm always amazed at how similar Takils and NainiTals are.

One day the mystery will be solved.

Barb

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:56 am

Thanks for the advice Jim. I think I'm going to leave all the leaves on so they can draw the nutrients from the leaves. What differnce does it make the boxes are going to be giant anyways. Do you think I should do it before a hard freeze? That's probably the beginning of Nov. I wish they were filliferas, maybe they have some in them with a little luck the stems are really green with not much purple. I can't tell the difference though.

Sorry about your palms Jim, your still a palm whisperer in my book.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:11 am

Hey Lucky,I hate to say this but I don't think many if any have a true Takil,most of whats out there is Naini Tal.
This is another of those Palms that if you follow the European palm forum(they have been at this a LOT longer than we have)even the experts have srewed this up and are responsible for the confusion.That said,I really love Naini Tal! It's a great palm,it grows fast and has a beautiful compact growth habit and the good news is if you have a large takil,(over half a foot)you have Naini Tal.The seeds for Takil have just become available in the last 4-5 years,so knowing how slow Trachys are from seedlings it's extremely unlikely that any "larger"palm is Takil.

What was our bet

I think any palm in the ground has a big advantage over a potted/indoor palm,the roots can really spread out.

I will have to post some pics of the T.tesan,Naini Tal and Waggies together,they all have such a beautiful compact growth habit.Tesan is definitely not regular fortunei.
Tesan looks like a cross between Naini Tal and Wagnerianus.
I have like a dozen or more Tesan that have sprouted,maybe next summer/fall when they are big enough I will let some go to you guys if you let me know your interested.

I will get some pics so you can compare,very cute little palms!
They almost look like bonsai

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:30 am

Thanks Bill,very kind words.If you guys knew how much much time I spend in the garden you would probably think I am a palm nut.
I think you should let them experience some cold,mine were fine down to 27F after that it gets a little risky.
I also believe it's a good idea to cut them off of water or water VERY little after the beggining of Oct.plants "stressed in drought mode"have an advantage to those kept wet going into winter.One problem with this approach is that palms that are not established are a little more sensitive to drought stress and may suffer to much foliage loss/damage,so it's atender process,follow your instincts on that one.
Another issue is how the cold comes this fall,is it sudden or do plants have time to adjust?You may want to throw some cloth over your Washys if they don't have some near freezing weather before a frost comes.

I certainly think you would be better being safe then sorry,so, maybe having your boxes ready or set up is a good plan as long as the palms don't overheat.It really looks like an early frost where I live this year but who knows maybe we will have a warm fall,after a summer like this who knows? Bet on frost in Sept?

Oh yea,the other thing is that you should keep the crownns dry going into frost.Maybe having your boxes set up to keep them dry and being able to remove the tops is the best of both.
If you have never read the site Palms in Colorado Springs USDA zone 5b you should check it out.If you e-mail me I can send it to you.These guys wrote the cold hardy gospil,IMO jimpdelaney@yahoo.com

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:37 am

Yup, Jim, that's why I brought up the "similarities" between Takil and NainiTal, as the subject has been discussed by the world's palm pros. Always interesting dialogue.

You bet that my NainiTal (indoors) would do better than yours (planted in the ground, protected over winter).
Oops...seems I won, having bet against myself.
Mine did NOT match your growth of 7 leaves this year.
Well done!

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:52 am

That's the kind of bet I like loosing

I would love to see how the Trachy you planted is doing,do you water it alot?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:54 am

Jim,
That bet certainly proves how effective your winter protection methods are!

When I planted the Trachy this Spring, I had big plans to really lavish attention on it with 20-20-20 (like another poster does, with great results). Ended up almost neglecting it due to other stuff happening. I think I only gave it some Epsom salts, can't remember if I fertilized it at all. It actually started to wilt when I realized I hadn't watered it for approx 2 months!

It's been a brutally hot and dry summer, but thankfully Trachy only gets morning sun in its permanent spot.
All the abuse...32 years in various pots, and finally in the ground, then I don't find the time to look after it !!! Poor guy.

It does look healthy!

Thanks for asking, Jim.
Barb

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:00 pm

Wow, it looks great, Barb. Makes me want to go buy one and try the same.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:30 am

Thanks ronbruce,

As you likely know, Trachies hate really hot and dry wind of typical Okanagan summers.
Wind breaks the fronds in half, shredding them.

But most palms can handle morning sun (except my 3 Triangle palms which got leaf burn last summer).

I expect the Trachy will do well on the East side of house as long as I don't screw up the winter protection.
In the right spot, I think Trachies can be bulletproof.

By the way, Fall is a good time to scour the nurseries. Palm prices are usually marked down in September, but they need to be indoors that first winter. Planting a trachy in spring gives a good amount of time for root development.

Barb

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:50 am

I have a feeling your palm hut will be top notch Barb. That is a really nice palm!

Bill

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:41 pm

It will indeed...'coz John's driving 35 miles to help construct the thing.

Last year it grew 2 more fronds in October...trachies love Fall and Spring here.

Barb

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:05 pm

I look forward to seeing this hut to give me ideas for the future.

Yes, Barb, I may head up to Kelowna tomorrow to see if any palm or yucca deals are about.

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:10 pm

Ron I have many palms for sale and a few yuccas. Cheaper than any commercial nursery.Pm if your interested.

John

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:31 pm

Good looking out John! I wished I was closer and could have helped him out, looks like your his answer. How hard would it be to send things back and forth across the border? Just curious. That's awsome that your going to help Barb out too. Another devoted palm person

Bill

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:00 pm

Bill since my palm hobby (obsession)

. I have way to many palms to keep just for myself so I have a hobby nursery. As far as shipping over the border maybe in the future. Phyto certificates and red tape ect.Nice to see many other people have the palm, zone denial afflliction as I do.

John

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 am

Looks nice Barb!
I wanted to post this for Bill,so he could take a look at what my Trachy saw in spring.
I would like to expose them to as much of winter as possible,at least that was the plan originally but you know how it goes,the more years in the ground the more fond(or should I say frond?palm humor

)you get of them.

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... hes004.jpg

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:33 am

That's pretty cool Jim (literally) One of these days I'll let it happen, it's good when the snow melts quickly. I would feel more comfortable doing it in the spring rather then fall I think. We get a lot of cold rain in early spring here, not really to good for the crown.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:57 am

Yea,strong sun and warming temps(I believe that was March 29th?) were the bigest factor in letting that happen,also knowing the snow would be gone quick.The palms had already seen colder temps in the fall and as winter went on I let them take more cold as they were already adjusted to it.
Some of my Trachys saw 5F for short periods,these were still covered so,no frost or accumulated moisture in crowns and no probs.Read what he says on th Colorado palms site about withholding water, drought mode and low soil moisture,also palms acclimating to cold.
The reasons most palms bite it is-as you mentioned crown moisture,wet soil,sudden cold before they acclimate.I mean these palms see 0F in there native land,so,all we need to do is find out whats -what!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:16 am

Ronbruce, I should've mentioned John's nursery too...sorry John (I must've had a brain fart!)
John (Okanagan desert palms) has fabulous specimens of outstanding size!
Great variety that'll make a big statement in your yard right away.
Plus he's less than an hour's drive from your place!
And believe me, his stuff is better than the commercial nursery stuff.
Must be all that love he lavishes on 'em.

Jim, "the longer in the ground the more FROND you get of them."
Great humor!

Jeez, so now we're posting palm/snow pics????? OKAY!

Barb

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:20 am

Actually now that I think back to my first encloser I was around when the temps went to 5.6 and the palm looked fine. It really did get cooked in March-April in there. I watered last year just because it was so warm in there during the day when the sun was out like mid 70's even in Feb. with the side open for air. The ground temp under my coffee burlap bags was 57 degree's even in beginning March. I think I used the light every night through the winter so it was 50 in there most nights

. Talk about being a chicken. This year I will use way less heat now that I know more. I will read the article for sure and be very careful with the watering if any.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:33 am

Thanks Barb-

Oucho.k o.k.-It's all wxmans fault,isn't it?
He's not here to defend himself so,thats how we do it in the painting buisness

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