Book: Palms Won't Grow Here...

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:49 pm

I'm sure this has been discussed on here before but I can't find it anywhere.

I know it's a bit on a high note but there are some neat things discussed in it. The author's advice got me to try some plants I would have never tried here and I've succeeded with most of them.

Anyone else find this book helpful?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:40 am

Yep,great book.
You can also find great info on this site,Garden Web Forum and also from googleing cold hardy palms.
Unfortunately one of my farorite sites-Growing palms in Colorado Springs USDA 5b-is no longer available,this was one of the best sites with plenty of technical data and great info in general.Another good site is Cool Tropics.

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:17 am

Thanks hj, and now I must go web surfing to look at these sites.

I did enjoy the Colorado one which I saw awhile back. I noticed he had posted on here a few times.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:27 am

ronbruce wrote: I know it's a bit on a high note but there are some neat things discussed in it. The author's advice got me to try some plants I would have never tried here and I've succeeded with most of them.
Anyone else find this book helpful?

I think it's needless to say, but this book is the best source for starting into the 'hardy-tropical' side of gardening. There is certainly a lot of great information contained therein and I reccomend reading it from cover to cover! I have one note however, the cold temperatures he gives are a bit on the low side, and typically I see damage at warmer temperatures. Not really a big deal I guess, I just like to see that people are cautious enough to get their plants thrugh the winter looking great (i.e. not dissappointed when their new bamboo browns out or is killed by -2f when he lists it as hardy to -15f)!!

I don't know what's happened to John in Colorado. I heard he was having personal problems and that he might be leaving Colo. Springs. He had some serious research into how much cold a plam really can take, and the perfect climate to test it. He was one of, if not the only, person I know of to get a needle palm through -20f. And his work with Trachycarpus spp. was also impressive. I really found the stuff on how a drought stressed palm can take more cold then a well watered one... Very interesting stuff.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:47 am

Great book indeed. I seem to be a bit slow on my responces, as you guys had it covered. He did make me think about planting a live oak. A Texas one though of course Q. virginiana var. fusiformis I think it would do ok here if I got a big one to start. I liked the info on crape myrtles and southern magnolias as well. I have 3 good sized ones all over 7 feet so will see how the data holds up. The winters in Ohio are colder than here for sure.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:34 pm

Paul Ont wrote:
ronbruce wrote: I know it's a bit on a high note but there are some neat things discussed in it. The author's advice got me to try some plants I would have never tried here and I've succeeded with most of them.
Anyone else find this book helpful?
I think it's needless to say, but this book is the best source for starting into the 'hardy-tropical' side of gardening. There is certainly a lot of great information contained therein and I reccomend reading it from cover to cover! I have one note however, the cold temperatures he gives are a bit on the low side, and typically I see damage at warmer temperatures. Not really a big deal I guess, I just like to see that people are cautious enough to get their plants thrugh the winter looking great (i.e. not dissappointed when their new bamboo browns out or is killed by -2f when he lists it as hardy to -15f)!!

I don't know what's happened to John in Colorado. I heard he was having personal problems and that he might be leaving Colo. Springs. He had some serious research into how much cold a plam really can take, and the perfect climate to test it. He was one of, if not the only, person I know of to get a needle palm through -20f. And his work with Trachycarpus spp. was also impressive. I really found the stuff on how a drought stressed palm can take more cold then a well watered one... Very interesting stuff.

Paul,the last I heard he had lost a lot of his palms, because of some sustained cold the last winter(days below freezing) which was a little discouraging but then again they never really protected much besides a tarp and withholding water.
I wonder if he lost some of his data when the site they used closed down.

BTW. his site was the one I modeled my cold hardypalm experiment after.The only difference was that I found I had to water a little more with new palms but his is a great plan.

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Well if he needs his info I tried to keep what I could when his site was active in my attempt to understand his theory on thresholds in re-establishing new growth. I used to look it over and over.....

I was fascinated with the idea of having enough growing degree days to build up the plant's reserves again so it doesn't slowly decline year after year. Like he wrote, palms may survive but decline in the long run if they can't build up their reserves.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:09 am

ronbruce wrote:Well if he needs his info I tried to keep what I could when his site was active in my attempt to understand his theory on thresholds in re-establishing new growth. I used to look it over and over.....

I was fascinated with the idea of having enough growing degree days to build up the plant's reserves again so it doesn't slowly decline year after year. Like he wrote, palms may survive but decline in the long run if they can't build up their reserves.

If I recall correctly, he and I had messaged back and forth on the HP and S board since he was starting to reise his GDD numbers for Trachycarpus. He was also looking in to T. fort x T. fort v. wag hybrids which might have superior tolerance to cold then either parent... Anyway, we discussed this little guy, a Trachy I've been 'sacrificing' to test how long a Trachy can live with cold damage and just what it needs to actually get bigger in an eastern zone 5!

Anyway, in case your interested, I had planted a T. fortunei (B.C. seed) plant in the summer of 2006. The first winter it was protected with mulch and a 'Rhodo cone'. I'll never use a Rhodo cone again, worst protection ever. I warn you now, the following images are graphic, it might be best to send small children out of the room!

Here is what it looked like in the spring of 2007, it gives you an idea of the size when planted:
<img src="http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/34815 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0924">
100% defoliation and I thought it was a goner... Wait, what's that? Canada Day 2007:
<img src="http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/36324 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="imgp1029">
Fall 2007:
<img src="http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/24565 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="imgp1079">
Spring 2008:
<img src="http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/43025 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="fortunei0608">
Spring 2009 (it's the one in front left):
<img src="http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/44724 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC01916">

Since the first winter I've protected it the following way: Wrapped the leaves in frost cloth and give it a 3" layer of mulch.
I'll have to get a shot of it heading into this winter. I guess if it survives again I can start to give it some proper protection...

You can see that since total defoliation it has grown a little each summer before being cut back a bit each subsequent winter. This was a small plant when planted and it remains small. I think it is really remarkable that it still struggles on. I have a needle plam that has been treated the same way, and it is starting to regain it's equilibrium... Not sure if I have done a pictoral review of that one... hmmm...

Some of my conclusions of growing Trachycarpus in zone 5: 1) it takes a small palms a long time to recover from defoliation. 2) In northern latitudes palms recover very slowly (late soil warmup, early frost, long winter). 3) In zone 5 small palms need less protection then you'd think to maintain 'most' of their foliage. 4) The base 50 GDD required to recover from full defoliation might be something greater then 3500 (or 2.5-3+ full summers in zone 5), for a small palm.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:12 am

That was great stuff wasn't it?
I remember seeing Trachycarpus neede 3200 gdd to regrow lost mass,pretty easy in my area.The one that may prove difficult in the long run in zone 5 is Washingtonia,I think it needed 4200 or 4600 or 4800 don't remember exactly but this would show that these need to retain some of their leaves over the winter to make it in the long haul.

I am curious if you copied his site? If you did,or have some of his info maybe you could e-mail it to me at jimpdelaney@yahoo.com

If not thats fine too,I also went over it again and again.
What a great site!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:26 am

Paul,I tend to agree with the earlier est of 3200.
I do agree a small palm would have big problems.
My Naini Tal had spear pull last Nov and totally defoliated over winter,it has since regrown and is on it's 7th leaf.
I have a Wag/fort that had spear pull in Nov also and I believe this one is no it's 6th leaf.

If you click on this site(webshots)you can see my S.louisiana(left) and my Naini Tal(right)click where it says next(upper right) to see how they look now-Sabal is growing it's third leaf Naini Tal going on 7.
I think the biggest factor in growing cold hardy palms is the overall health of the palm first,the rest of the crosses or the Bulgarian form or Greensboro form to me is debatable as far as wheather these are hardier,IMO.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... 7902JhhUqM

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:39 am

Wow Paul that was graphic! You better buy that poor little guy a drink before this winter comes and have a nice little chat with him

!!!

Good stuff for sure, after this winter you should have yourself a pretty hardy palm after he regains some strength. I think he might need some counciling for sure though.

Bill

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:53 am

I agree that 3200 GDD might be correct for a defoliated but otherwise healthy plant (i.e. established). But I've shown that in a small unestablished palm it will take more then 3500 GDD if it's health is maintained (and even more if it gets knocked back in winter it wil obviously need more).

I don't know about the GDD given for Washingtonia. It seems to me that Washingtonia is one of the easier plams to grow with damage. They are much faster growing then other 'hardy' palms, which, if you think about it, means that they can recover faster then other palms. I will say that daytime heat would be much more important for Washgintonia then it would for other spp... But, with the warmer damage temp there is more of a risk of winter kill then there is in other species.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:06 am

I think your right about the smaller palms,Trachys really need quite a few mature leaves to be large enough to recover during the growing season.
I would also like to add that there is a big difference in the GDD that is based on avg air temps for a given area,for one thing most of us up north are growing our palms(or should be) in our "protected" micro climates on the favored side(usually south) of our homes,etc.There is quite a bit of difference between the cactus bed where the max temp (15" off the ground) so far this summer is 106F and the max air temp is about 93F .
I am sure the GDD for my micro climate -at ground level where the plants are- averages almost 10% higher than the air temps.

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:16 pm

This is the very first book I purchased on growing cold hardy palms. Great book.

John

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:47 pm

Is there a good site that shows the average growing degree days of cities? Seems to me I can look mine up on Environment Canada but any other sites out there?

I like how Dr. Francko pointed out that people are willing to water their plants in summer to keep their plants alive but heaven forbid they should cover them in winter.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:51 am

Ron,
For GDD the Colorado site used base 50 (10C). There is a map of base 5C GDD for Canada. Unfortunately we can't extrapolate this out since it inflates the values for coastal regions and lessens it for hot inland areas...
http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/m ... te/mcr4034
This site also hosts a great number of other maps, which aren't really that accurate anymore! They are based on data from 1941-1970 and with urban heat island, climate change, change in precipitation patterns, etc. many of the information presented isn't accurate any longer.

There is a 'rough' way to calculate the average base 50 GDD for your area. Go to Weather underground. Look up the nearest airport (in my case Kingston, ON). Then look at the detailed weather history. Click custom period. Then select a period of a year and check out the GDD.
So for Kington:
Last 12 months: 2075
12 Months before that: 2322
12 Months before that: 2086
12 Months before that: 2567
"": 2495

Taking the average I get a value of 2309. Which tells me that it will take more then 12 full months for a defoliated T. fortunei to regrow a full crown in my climate (if we use the ~3200GDD number).

For fun, some other cities GDD for the previous 12 months, focus on areas where board members live. You can, sort of, see the trends this year. Hot west coast, cool Ontario, Interior of B.C. near average, and East Coast cooler then normal:

Vancouver (Very Hot Summer this year, lots of record heat!): 1772
Victoria: 1511
Kamloops: 2594 (I thought it would be more...)
Edmonton: 821 (Wow...)
Windsor, ON: 2891 (Thought this would be less given the cool summer this year)
Toronto: 2074 (wow. Much lower then I expected given the numbers from Windsor!)
Halifax: 1672 (Not much of a summer this year)

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:34 am

Paul, that's awesome and I'll check it out.

I was using the weather winner website and feeling a bit blue but your method may just make me happier.

Off to look.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:30 am

Thanks for the info as always Paul! I'm going to look into it also for curiosity.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:42 am

Paul,interesting info.I would have never thought the numbers would be so low in some of the areas you showed.

I think here in Fairfield Iowa we avg 3600,this formula( I believe) was developed for corn crops and runs during the "frost free" period from Aril 1-Nov 1
I think the highest I have seen in my area is 3800,lowest 3400
I was looking at the gdd for Washingtonia and it is actually 5600! according to GPICS USDA 5B
You can increase the gdd for your palms by planting in a micro climate,improving your micro climate,(like putting down black rock or mulch or by protecting from wind)my cactus bed avgs 10-15F higher then air temp on sunny days the less wind/more sun -the higher the temp gets.

I think the whole point here is to keep your palms leaves as healthy as possible over winter so they don't spend all their energy regrowing their mass,esp in areas with low GDD.

One other point is that GDD numbers once palms have stopped growing do not make any immediate difference during winter.
I have not seen any growth out of my palms during winter when soil temps drop below 50F,maybe this will change when they are well established. In the site from Co Springs they said their palms grew 1 new spear and leaf Nov-April-I have not seen this.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:52 am

Here's another site to look it up. Not sure if it dose Canada.

http://climate.fizber.com/massachusetts ... imate.html

Bill

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:52 am

hardyjim wrote:One other point is that GDD numbers once palms have stopped growing do not make any immediate difference during winter.
I have not seen any growth out of my palms during winter when soil temps drop below 50F,maybe this will change when they are well established. In the site from Co Springs they said their palms grew 1 new spear and leaf Nov-April-I have not seen this.

This point has been debated on the other board as well. I think it was Dr. Allen Hirsh who thought that palms (Trachycarpus in particular) could enter into a dormancy period, where most (all?) others thought that this was impossible... To my mind I think that palms can never enter a true dormancy period, rather, I think they just slow their growth rates so much that only by comparing the fall foliage and the spring foliage can we see that growth has occured at all. In terms of GDD you're probably right that we should only really count from April 1 to December 1 since even warm temps outside this period aren't likely to produce much, if any, extra growth.

5600 GDD seems awfully high for recovery to growth in Washingtonia (increase in size after defoliation).

Bill- Neat site, but no it doesn't cover Canada!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:37 am

Paul-

I agree totally agree with you about GDD for Wasingtonia,I checked the site again and saw 5000 GDD,maybe next time I look it will be 4400.

I think it's important for people not familiar with the whole GDD thing to remember that the figures on this site are for regrowing mass after the palms lost ALL their leaves and replenishing stored carbs.This would not be a factor if you keep your palms leaves healthy over winter-

Washys-
We have had such cool summers the last 2 years that Washys have not done much

I also think that the whole dormancy thing is a little vague,it depends on how you define it ,my palms did grow over the winter but very slowly,the spear may have grown an inch or two in 5-6 months,thats hard to see over that long of a period-especially when your as impatient as me

Maybe if we have a mild winter like we did in 2006-2007 they would really grow.
I really don't see that happening here after the coldest July on record,we usually have 12 or so days 90+ in July this year we had 0! and only 2 in Aug ! Thats amazing when you consider the avg July high is 88F ! We averaged only 80F

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:53 am

The early summer was tough for most of us this year for sure. I'm thinking I need to atleast try to save some of the leaves on my washys this winter. I makes it tough building ten foot boxes oh well it is what it is. I might put one of those boat socks in the incloser to reduce moisture. That GDD site I found had my area at 3040 so I'm way off. The thing is though if where heating are palms the number whould change big time for the better. With a bit of luck will have a easy winter and a hot summer, it dosen't hurt to be optimistic!

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:21 am

I think it(heating) only effects things for the better if you are keeping temps above 50F.Then you could create some GDD during the winter-however.........
The other thing is ground temps,if it drops below 50F your palms will probably not grow anyway.

I think it's a sound idea to save some leaves,palms can deplete themselves trying to recover each year as they have to use some of their stored food to do this,you can see how a few years of this would wear them out.

I think it's important to get our own results but apply all the info thats out there for best results,you may find a loophole

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:51 pm

Jim, my washy put out one frond during the winter last year. It didn't look like it grew visually, but when I compared pictures it grew. Take a look.

Before boxing it up:

After taking protection off:

You can see the closed up frond which opened. Here it is today. I know it doesn't look like it added any fronds this year, but remember I clipped last years off in June. This year my box will have extra insulation on to help prevent contact burn with plastic. The new fronds are 36" wide now!

I kept all last years fronds until the last week of June. Then I clipped them off because it had already regrown three and last years were half brown and ugly. But I truly believe they helped jumpstart the palm in the spring! My washingtonia that I overwintered in the backyard that defoliated last year only regrew four fronds this year so far! So you are right, you NEED to keep the fronds for a jumpstart in spring.

I also keep my winter boxes between 35F and 75F. I let them get warm during the day as I believe that helps warm the ground and roots under the box.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:22 pm

My Fortunei did the same thing as your Washy,it had a leaf that was partially opened and it opened more over the winter,at least thats what it looked like from your pic.
You did a really nice job protecting last winter,if we had as warm of summers as we usually do,I think the Washys would have done better

One thing you could also do is add a foot of mulch around your box.I did not allow enough space nor did I mulch enough so I lost mine,I am trying another and leaving the,ahem,leaves on this time.I will use sytrofoam this time to cut down the amount of watts I need to heat it,also to protect the leaves.
If you add another layer of plastic watch the temps carefully.I tried that during an Arctic outbreak on one of my Trachys,the temp was 0F outside and went up 80F! I would hate to see what would happen on a sunny day around freezing.
Oh,the other reason I bring up the mulch is that I noticed you had a LOT of snow last winter insulating the palm enclosures,if that doesn't happen again soil temps could plummet.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:42 pm

wxman,
One thing you might try in spring is switching out the white rocks to something darker of you preference. I'm not saying it looks bad but I'm sure your ground temps don't warm up as fast as if you had a dark mulch. That would sure help them get going faster too. I know in Fla. they put the white rocks down to cool the soil temps. imagine if we had that problem. Nice job this year.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:39 pm

I also thought this would be a great idea,black mulch is a cheap way to go,I think better for helping air temps right around palm.Mulch in general lowers ground temps and should be peeled back in late winter/early spring.I think the black rock does help keep ground temps up,(IME)I had a couple pieces of slate over the ground around under my Mazari,it was warmer by a few degrees every time I checked.I hope I can get one of these through the winter one of these times!

Oops,in regard to mulch- I meant to say it slows warming in spring but it does help soil retain warmth in fall and insulates in winter
Da?

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:55 pm

Where do you find GDD for palms?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:12 pm

If you want to e-mail me,I can try and send you the link to the site.
The GDD(on this site) is an estimate given for palms they tested,it also was used to approximate warmth needed during growing season April-Oct,for palms to regrow once defoliated and regain all lost mass.

jimpdelaney@yahoo.com

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:06 pm

Great book! Just read it after seeing this post and its inspired me to put something in the ground next year. Probably a Trachy as it would have the best chance. Also may try some of the other plants/tress he suggested.

Mark

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:24 pm

Nice Mark glad the book inspired you! Everyone should grow palm in zones that they don't belong.

Bill

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:02 pm

Paul Ont wrote: I'll never use a Rhodo cone again, worst protection ever.

Reading back over this I noticed this comment. Is that the same thing as a rose cone, a styrofoam cone that has a removable top? Just what I was thinking I'd use on my Trachy seedlings this year too. Perhaps I should just stick with leaves for now then?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:58 am

Don't know if thats what he's talking about but rose cones
are awesome,pleanty of light and easy to heat.Mine never got more tha10F above the outside temp when the sun was out.I just wish they made them the size of trash cans so I would not have to make something

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:21 am

Jim how do the rose cones hold the heat if you use minilights or something? might be good for my gardenias.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:27 am

It might be a 'rose cone'. The tag said 'Rhodo cone', and it is basically a styrofoam cone (think a large styrofoam pot that you invert over the plant to be protected.). No part of it was removable and the light allowed in was 0. Really a terrible thing. I know that the evidence says a dormant Rhodo doesn't need any light in its dormant phase, so maybe the removable top is the difference?

Anyway, here's the problem: NO light, NO air flow, Collects heat (prone to 'cook' plants) in the sun. I don't know about heat retention, but it must be able to hold heat pretty well...

I used it the one time and it performed so terribly that I threw it out and vowed to never use one again. It makes me mad just thinking about it...

ronbruce · Post by **ronbruce** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:46 am

Paul, sorry it didn't work too well for you.

I see some of these cones have removable tops and some don't. In Calgary they sure sold well for roses.

You could remove the tops to stuff in straw, or whatever, to help insulate and then remove the tops on warm days. I saw some here last year but they had no removable tops.

Now I'm wondering if large nursery pots would do the trick as they do have some holes for venting and then are black to soak in the heat.

Of course perhaps I should cut a trap door in the bottom or just say to heck with it and throw my composter over the top of a plant or I could get a few garbage cans like others have suggested. Cut a hole in their bottoms maybe?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:38 am

This are the best pics I can find of the rose covers I used,they have 4 holes in the top(bottom)they are upside down.I had a sensor inside.On a sunny day they never went above 10F over the outside temp.When it was really cold I had the holes covered with bricks(they were anyway) to hold them down.Whenever it was over 40-45F I took them off,they were bright inside in daylight like the plants were covered with snow.I used c-7 lights(a little smaller than c-9) 5 wts a peice,about 3 in each one kept the plants well above freezing in any cold,down to -17F. I love styrofoam for covering palms,etc,I wish they made these 2-3x this size.They are around a half inch thick I believe and cost $5 at a major hardware store.

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08007.jpg" border="0" alt="Leaf piles(needle palms)"></a>

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08005.jpg" border="0" alt="Needle palm"></a>

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:28 am

Those look much thinner then the one that I used! Glad they work for you, and maybe something for people to try this coming winter... The first picture (centre) I assume is a banana, and that is similar to the protection that I use. I just wrapped the stems in frost cloth (with lights inside some of these) which could be analogous to your use of the styrofoam cone!

Has anyone used the plastic 'chicken wire' to hold leaves in place? Thi stuff is 1/2 or less the price of regular chicken wire so I'd like to know if it works as well!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:15 pm

Paul,my Needles were inside the leaf piles.
I have not tried plastic,the wire fencing I used was about as flimsy as I would want to go.

PalmsNorth.com

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