Just because something is protected does not always mean that its seed is. The Joshua tree is protected but in most cases you can harvets the seed. And it would not be very hard to buy seed under the table in a country like India. Here in the US I can buy Takils grown from wild collected seed. You can also buy wild collected seed to grow your self icon_biggrin.gif

I also think you have very good info on this subject and I can not rule out your evidence. icon_biggrin.gif

no, your information was understood perfectly. That Chinese Trachycarpus is neither a new species nor a "neW and more coldhardy form of T. fortunei. ist is just normal fortunei.

How fast do you think a Trachycarpus can grow? There is no Trachycarpus species o this planet that can grow 3 meters or more of trunk wihthin 10 years.
And you are right. That Rome takil looks different and it is different from the palms we know as takils today. These palms look like fortunei. The first seeds of these palm arrived in Europe and AMerica in 1994.

When I speak about protection then I mean that is cannot be dug out . That is the only way to get a 3 meter True Takil. It takes far longer than 10 years to grow a Takil to that height. It is extremly slow growing wihtin the first 10 years because it creeps on the ground in its infancy.

Have you ever read the original description of the T. takil by Beccari? Beccari described how he grew that palm and it took him 14 years until it had a trunk of 1 meter. it then grew at a pace of 30 - 40 cm trunk per year.

The palms you can buy grown from "seeds collected in the wild" are grown from seeds collected from Trachycarpus grown in front of the Boat Club house in the Tourist own of Nainital, Kumaon, India. A really "wild" place! True wild seeds are hard to come by because there are only a few mature and seed bearing plants at all and these are controlled by the Government which runs a program to save this species.

I bet, you cannot show me JUST ONE SINGLE plant that has the sort of leaves shown by the Rome Takil!

Sounds good 😀

Your info was read und understood but that trachycarpus from China ist neither a news species nor a new and more coldhardy form. it is just T. fortunei.
The Rome in Rome is looks different from the "takils" available here now because it is different.

If I mean a plant is protected then I mean that you cnnot dig it out and that is the only way to get a 3m trunked Takil.
The seeds "from the wild" were collected from Trachycarpus (probably forunei) in front of the Boat Club House in the tourist town of Nainital in Kumaon, India.
That is a really "wild place". True seeds from the wild are hard to come by as there are only a few adult specimens of T. takil left in the wild and the seeds are collected by the government for a program to save this species. An most of the fruiting trees do not carry seeds every year.

Here is a very interesting report on T. takil made by an Indian Professor in 1995

Your info was read und understood but that trachycarpus from China ist neither a news species nor a new and more coldhardy form. it is just T. fortunei.
The Rome in Rome is looks different from the "takils" available here now because it is different.

If I mean a plant is protected then I mean that you cnnot dig it out and that is the only way to get a 3m trunked Takil.
The seeds "from the wild" were collected from Trachycarpus (probably forunei) in front of the Boat Club House in the tourist town of Nainital in Kumaon, India.
That is a really "wild place". True seeds from the wild are hard to come by as there are only a few adult specimens of T. takil left in the wild and the seeds are collected by the government for a program to save this species. An most of the fruiting trees do not carry seeds every year.

Here is a very interesting report on T. takil made by an Indian Professor in 1995

Well I have read and I geuss I can't stop talking about this 😀 It did say that on a steep hill side many young and adults where found, a " treasure-house" with a number of young and adult trees. I think it very possible for seed to be harvested by a collector 😀
As far as t. wagnerianus it sure looks diferent to me 😉 It may have came from Japan and that makes it very likely a diferent sp.

However the seeds you can buy here were not from that slope. They are from Nainital.
But we have a saying: "Hope dies last".

T. wagnerianus originally came from China to Japan probably as T. fortunei and was bred to produce smaller leaves.
There is no other diference between wagnerianus und fortunei. First genetic tests have shown almost no genedic distance between both forms. Final dna test results will be issued soon.

Good info 😀 I am learning new things. I have seen pictures in a horticulture book from 1910, that showed palms that looked liked t. wagnerunianus. It was very interesting 😯 the people there were wrapping them to protect them against the winters in the northern part of the country 😆 Looks like the cold hardy palm has been around for a long time 😉
It will very interesting to see if t. wag. is the same as t. fort. 😀

I still wounder what trachy from india has the bare trunk? If it is not t. takil ❓ Because t. fortunei has a hairy trunk.

When that information becomes available will you let us know?

This info will first be published in "Palms" because the test are being financed by the IPS and are done by a guy from Hamburg/Germany as a diploma thesis.

Aaron, the first time the hemp palm was mentioned by a westener in literature was in 1712 by the German physician who served with the Dutch trading post in Nagasaki, Japan. At that time, only Dutch traders from the Dutch United East India Company where allowed to
set foot on Japan territory adn Adalbert Kaempfer disguised himself a a Dutchmen and discribed a lot of plants.
100 year later it was another German physician, Philip Franz von Siebold, who brought the first T. fortunei to Euroape in 1830 (under the name of Chamaerops exelsa). Hoever already Adalbert Kaempfer wrote thate that palm came from China.

The bare trunked Trachies are T. martianus Nepal) and Tr. martianus (Khasia Hills). Furthermore, the are a lot of fortuneis here with are trunks. Not all fortuneis have hairy trunks. However, ALL true takils have hairy trunks. The Rome takil´s trunk is onlydenuded on the for t 2 meters. The rest is fully overed with fibres AND old leaves for over 100 years. And this is exactlywhat Beccari wrote in his description.

Arnold is correct in his description of the fortunei / takil / wagnerianus differences.

I am so "confused," over this speciation debate, that I no longer refer to the genus by species, and references to our planted Trachycarpus are simply what they were acquired as.

It might be better to refer to the whole bunch as the "fortunei group" with variations. I've seen enough mature Trachycarpus now to be certain that a wide range of variation and "hybridization" occurs, assuming there truly are these different species.

Out of interest, below are leaves of our takil, photo taken Saturday morning, temperature -2F. One thing they do in subzero F cold is turn very dark, blackish green. So far, no internal cell damage has occurred from subzero F cold in these Trachycarpus. Spears are also solid and intact.