Very interesting 8) I have heard that is one way to tell them apart.

Macario, where did you get the first photo from? This is definitely MY picture and it is MY fortunei and MY hand and that pic.
And it is as I already mentioned NOT a T. takil. It is in fact a T. fortunei x wagnerianus and this picture proves that the asymetric hastula is NOT a Takil trait. It isn´t a genetic trait at all. It is just an individual modification according to stress or growing conditions and it can appear an any Trachycarpus species.

In the original description of the t. takil mady by Odoardo Beccari in 1905 this trait is NOT mentionend either. It was proclaimed as a Takil trait or even as THE distinguishing trait by T. Spanner after he had seen in in Kumaon on that very palms from which today´s takil seeds are harvested.
He considered it a genetic trait but so far none of the offsprings of these palms has ever produced one.
The true Takils Beccari grew from seeds he reportedly got from Kumaon never showed this trait either.

So please stop using this picture under the title "Takil Hastula".

There is one distinguishing trait, however. It is the leaf form. The leaf segments of Takil split the leaf blade irregularly but ONLY DOWN TO ABOUT THE MIDDLE, where the leaf segments of Fortunei (as can be seen on my picture) irregularly split the leaf very deeply, with a very deep cutr every 2 or 3 segments.

Unfortunately all the offsprings of today´s takil show exactly this leaf and segment pattern 😉

This is how a TRUE TAKIL looks like:

Now thats what i call information 😆

Where is that pic of the true takil taken from ❓ And do you have any true takils in your yard ❓ And if you do then where can a person get the seed from ❓ Good info by the way, I also have heard that info was not correct, but have never seen it for my self. So is all the takils in the US half breeds ❓

What I've heard is that most older ones are probably some kind of Trachycarpus mix. And they say that the best way to get a real one is to get some that where collected in the expedition in india in 1994 or to get a younger that was known to have been grown from imported seeds that can be traced back to india in one way or another. If you want a good takil you can get one from jungle music, they have 15 gallon ones grown from seed that was imported and they can prove it. The guy at jungle music said they grow very fast, he had one in a box they had grown from seed as well but they sold it.

That pic was taken in Rome and it show the only ture Takil that exists in Europe or elsewhere outside of India.
it was grown from seeds by the italian Botanist O. Beccari in 1887 who reportedly got the seeds from Mt. Takil (Thalkedar) in Kumoan, india.
All other Takils grown from the original batch of seeds died during harsh winters in Florence, Italy. Only this specimen in Rome survived because it is much warmer in Rome.
This picture also poves that Takil do not have bare trunks and keep the fibres and even the old leaves for their whole life span.

I have no takil in my garden und in my view the takils grown from seeds coming to Europe since 1994 are different from what Beccari described and show leaves typical for fortunei.
They also lack other Beccarian takil traits except for the creeping habit when young. But this is a habit which takil shares with most of the Trachycarpus species, including many fortuneis (not all).

But let´s get back to the asymetric Hastula which we were told was a typical Takil trait.

Now look at this:

I have just received this picture from the Universtity of Florence where the orignal herbaric specimens of the takil are being stored.
it shows the rachis of one of the leaves taken from THAT VERY TAKIL SPECIMEN that Beccari used for his description of that species in 1905.
This Rachis (the backside of the Hastula) is very regular and so the hastula is. It is NOT ASYMETRIC and therefore the adymetric hstual CANNOT BE a true and reliable Takil trait.
Beccari had several takils grown from the seeds from Kumaon but none of these plants ever showed this sort of hastula.

Hello Arnold. Just a follow up on T. takil. Are these new hybridized versions of T.takil x T. trachycarpus since 1994 any more cold hardy, grow faster and taller than the pure T. trachycarpus? These claims are made by nurseries selling them as pure as T. takil from seeds collected from the original source of these trees. Thank you for your opinion.
Regards, John

I do not know of any hybridized takils. And if they are takil x fortunei hybrids then these hybrids should me less coldhardy than fortunei.
True takil has not survived in Italy north of Rome but Fortunei grwos happily and is self reproductive several hundreds km to the north in the Italian and Swiss Alps. Fortunei ist definitely hardier as ist come from a much colder climate. Kumaon is much warmer than central china.

http://www.weatherreports.com/Mukteshwar_Kumaon,_India/averages.html

The last takil in Florence died in 1985 and the other plants in Beccari´s Garden died many years earlier during cold winters. However, Florence Italy is a relatively mild place. I grow fortuneis almost 1.000 miles north of Florence without any protection.

So most of the properties that were assigned to the Takil are exaggerated. It is NOT the most coldhardy Trachy, it is definitely NOT the fastest growing Trachy, it das NOT have a naked trunk, it is NOT larger in all parts and it does NOT have 60 leaf segments.

Beccari has given us a completely different description and this description is the only valid description. If the palms which are now called Takils have all these traits mentioned above then they are something different but not takil.

Ok since you have alot of information I wanted to know if I could ask you this, what do you think about the cold hardyness of the fortunei growing in bejing china? That is a zone 6/7 climate there and they have adult 20 foot fortunei there, and they harvest seeds and have smaller 3-6 foot of trunk trees for sale. Would you say I would have a better bet getting those instead of growing so called takils in zone 6?

If nurseries have for a plant for sale they are calling the takil, and it has a bald trunk, then what palm is it ❓ I had one of these "takils" in the past and it grew faster and larger then the same aged fortunei. They claimed that the seed came from India?

in America nurseries still sell T. wagnerianus (has small fans) as T. takil. That is because some 40 years ago a well-known palm magazine in the US showed a picture of a wagnerianus which was labelled as T. takil. And nurseries somethimes are notoriously sticking to false names. The same happens here in Europe with "Chamaerops excelsa" This name is still used for T. fortunei although it is all wrong.

So if somebody offers you LARGE trunked Takils it will be anything else but not true takil, probably T. wagnerianus which however is no longer regarded as a separate species but is now only a synonym for T. fortunei.

The Fortuneis from Beg´jing are neither a new species nor a variation. Those are normal T. fortunei from costal China which were brought to Bejing.
The climatic data of Bejing show that the lowest temperature during the past 20 years was +2°F which every established fortunei can easily handle.

All you have to do ist to let your Fortunei adapt itself to your climate. This takes 2-3 years. During the first your you have to protect ist when temps go below
12°F. The following Winter you can let it take 5°F without protection. From then on you should protect it however or it will lose it leaves.

Yes, once upon a time nuseries here in the US may have mistaked t. wagnerianus for takil, but I think that is an old mistake. Most nurseries in the US even point this out. Even if the palm US nurseries are selling as Takil is just a t. fortunei it has proven here to be a faster growing, larger, and more cold hardy then the normal spieces.
And I don't buy that about t. wagnerianus either 😕 People may say t. wagnerianus is the same as t. fortunei, but it looks very diferent to me 😉
I think you have very good info 😀 , but I have spoken to sameone from China that knows these palms called Trachycarpus Fortunei cv "Tesan" have survived -4 f. and yes they are a form of t. fortunei, but are proving to do better than the normal spieces.

it is not unsual that fortunei survives such temperatures but this does not make them a separate species. Of course palm certain dealers would like them to be one.....
My fortuneis here in Germany also have survived -2°F. That is northing unusual. it all depends on how early you plant them and how long they have been able to acclimatize. Every now an then somebody pops up and presentsa "new and super coldhardy palm" That´s nothing new. But so far all these palms have turned out to be plain normal regular fortuneis. This Ciinese guy can send a leaf probe to the guy who is currently doing DNA-tests all Trachycarpus species. He will know very soon what it really is.

once again, if somebody offers you large trunked "Takils" ask him where he got them from. He cannot have them grown from seeds since the first so called takil seeds apart from the seeds Beccary got in 1887, came to Europe and the USA in 1994. And these "takils" really grow slowly.
There are a few hundred true Takils left in the orignal habitat in Northern India and these are protected by the Government.
So where are these "takils" from? Do they have deeply split leaves? Then they are no true takils. There was a big hype about the Takil some years ago when it was "rediscovered" and it was said it was the most coldhardy of the genus, larger in all parts, faster growing, bare trunked, taller, more beautiful, so bold....
All this is not true. True takil is just as large as fortunei, as covered with fibres as fortunei, probably slower growing and very probably less coldhardy as its habitat is much warmer than that where fortunei originally comes from (China).

I think some of my info is not being read correctly. The super hardy palms form China are t. fortunei just a better cold hardy form.

The Takil from Rome looks so diferent then the pictures of that palm in the wild, it makes me wonder if there is another palm out there? That people have taken seed from? That grows larger and faster.

Just because something is protected does not always mean that its seed is. The Joshua tree is protected but in most cases you can harvets the seed. And it would not be very hard to buy seed under the table in a country like India. Here in the US I can buy Takils grown from wild collected seed. You can also buy wild collected seed to grow your self 😀

I also think you have very good info on this subject and I can not rule out your evidence. 😀