Barrie, Very encouraging words 🙄 So if all of us that don't live in a 8b-9a climate like yourself all planted are palms in pots and brought them in for the winter what would be the point of this forum?
Bill

Bill I agree 100% ... I look in admiration with the enthusiasm folks have for trying to grow palms and exotics in cold zones.
I do however hate to see people spend money and plant palms without adequate measures.
If you're planting palms rated several zones beyond your local area, be prepared for failure.
Extensive structures and protection is required to winter those palms.
I too have had palms make a decade or so only to fail in exceptional cold.

Many have gone before you ... as I've been growing exotics since the very early 1980's, well before the internet forums.
I wish everyone the best of luck but past experience speaks volumes.
I wonder how many current cold climate enthusiasts will be part of this experience ten or twenty years from now?
I hope many will have enough to share in 2110 or beyond.

Cheers, Barrie.

I must have missed that in your previous post and still detect your thinly veiled insults.
Maybe you can modify your last post again and help us all see a more positive side of you-
it would be a welcome change-

JH

Thanks Bill 😐

I wanted to avoid this post, but I think some other 'experienced folks' need to give some input too:
Barrie- I'll respond to you first:

"I look in admiration with the enthusiasm folks have for trying to grow palms and exotics in cold zones.
I do however hate to see people spend money and plant palms without adequate measures. "
Totally agree- You HAVE to know your climate, what the plants can take (there is a LOT of misinformation out there, or information based on short time periods... Cough - Francko - Cough)

"If you're planting palms rated several zones beyond your local area, be prepared for failure."

Disagree completely. If you're growing things beyond your zone without adequate protection this is true... But, experience and good information can and do help people grow what can't be grown. On second reading, I notice you say 'several' zones beyond, as in more than 2. There is some truth to that. I'd be foolish to try to plant and overwinter a Bismarckia (a zone 9b/10a plant) whereas you may not (but it would be difficult to protect!). I grow needle palms in zone 4b, this IS a zone 7 plant, that's 3 zones. Mine have flowered... I don't think that is a failure:) They may perish if/when we have another bout of -32C weather, which is why to do this hobby properly you need to protect for the worst case scenario and anything better than that is a bonus.

"Extensive structures and protection is required to winter those palms."
Not always. Some species (NOT Sabals) can be overwintered quite well by simply piling leaves around them. That's not too extensive IMO.

"I too have had palms make a decade or so only to fail in exceptional cold."

I too lose palnts each winter. It's part of the hobby. Live and learn, it's the losses that tach us most about the particulars of our climate AND the plant species we wish to grow.

"Many have gone before you ... as I've been growing exotics since the very early 1980's, well before the internet forums."

I've been alive since the early 1980's... And can remember a time when there was no internet forums... Sort of... I think... Point taken, you've been doing this longer, and certainly have a good understanding of how plants react to your climate.

"I wish everyone the best of luck but past experience speaks volumes. I wonder how many current cold climate enthusiasts will be part of this experience ten or twenty years from now? I hope many will have enough to share in 2110 or beyond."

Experience is key is this hobby. No matter how many newbs we get on this forum, I'm always amazed by the ignorance (maybe not the right word) of people thinking they can overwinter their Trachycarpus in Toronto wihtout protection... Maybe, in the midest winters, with a burlap screen...
Or, people in places like Montreal telling me that they live in zone 6 (it's long-term 4b, bordering on 5a downtown). The best approach, I think, in getting people educated on a subject is to present the data, let thme know what they'll have to do, and then let them decide (most decide that they know best and do what they wanted anyway, usually with predicatable results). Part of this hobby is knowing that you're going to lose plants, and this WILL cost you money. What fun is it if you grow an oak in Victoria? It's similar to me growing a Rose of Sharon here... There's no adventure in it, it's been done before, the plants don't have that 'look' to them... That's NOT what this forum is about. Now, if the fellow in Thunder Bay decides to grow a Rose of Sharon, or even morning glory's, that would be note worthy. They really stand out up there. Or, if you, Barrie, decided to grow a Ensete... That's newsworthy.

One caveat to this is that uncommon plants, even if they are completely hardy, are also inculded in my definiaiton of exotic gardening. Those plants that give an exotic effect are also included. Bamboo is hardy here, but not common, so I include it. I might also include it in BC, but it certanly doesn't have the same impact that it does here. Neither do palms in general. Here, if you see a palm planted in the ground it's a story. Whereas there, the common Trachycarpus fortunei (and var's) would be akin to 'paper bark maple' here... They're nice to look at, ornamental, give the look you want, but not generally worth a second glance. Now, grow something with some umph to it, even if it's hardy, like Jubea, and I'll spend an hour examining it!

Ok, enough of a rant. I just don't like to see the negativity. Trying to help someone understand the bioogy of this hobby is one thing, I think it accomplishes something; but saying things like "If you're planting palms rated several zones beyond your local area, be prepared for failure", doesn't help anybody. I might be reading too much into this. I hope I explained why this post caused me grief above, and sorry for the spelling mistakes. Also, if you don't appreciate my writing style, it's a product of a scientific education (no one ever accused scientists of being good writers!)

Paul

Thanks for your input Paul-

! think the most enjoyable thing for me is walking up to my home and seeing palms.
I also enjoy the reactions of people that come by,rarely do people want to hear all about it.
I would talk their ear clean off anyway!

Thanks why I come here-and this brings me to the second thing I enjoy,learning about these plants
and how to get them to survive.
I learned an invaluable lesson this past winter,something I read about but now have felt the sting of learning first hand.

I know it well but was lured into thinking everything would be fine-
Last fall was warm here,then it went straight to winter,in January I saw the damage on my large
Fortunei,the new leaf was drying up.
I don't even think it was the severity of the winter that got it,it was how quickly it hit!

My Trachys have laughed(I didn't hear it my ears were frozen)at single digits (F)-
when they are hardened off,before they get to this point they are in danger.

I could sit here and tell you how I started growing plants when I was 5- 6 or whatever
but the point is there is always more to learn and these plants(PALMS)NEVER fail to amaze me!
I love Trachycarpus,they are truly amazing palms with their ability to defy classification and evolve on the go!

I have learned something else very interesting about these palms,something new-
I look forward to sharing it with EVERYONE on this forum when the time is right-
probably in the next 2 weeks or so.
I know of at least 2 people who didn't know this,I am the other one
😉

I must have missed that in your previous post and still detect your thinly veiled insults.
Maybe you can modify your last post again and help us all see a more positive side of you-
it would be a welcome change-

JH

Thanks Bill 😐

First off ... I have the board members best interests in mind. Perhaps it's the practical side of me that emerges when I see devestating pics. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but as I've stated before, plants and palms growing well out of their range require special care (assuming you want to see them survive beyond one season). That in a nut shell is what I'm saying, nothing more, nothing less.
Secondly ... I shoot with both barrels when it comes to insults, and I would never "thinly veil" them.

Cheers, Barrie 🙂

Barrie & Everyone Else Here,
I can safely say that every single person on this board cares for there plants/tree's more then the average person! That being said, it's hard for anyone of us to lose a plant or tree that we have cared for for maybe a year or maybe four+. We are lucky here to have such a wide range of people from north to south and from east to west to share there experiences from a HUGE zone range. Everyone's input is great No matter if your a long term gardener or an eager new comer.
Without these points of view we would just have another text book ❗ We need real life data from Everyone here which is what we all seem to do anyways. Some years are good and soon years are bad. Where all adults here and no one likes being told what to do generally, even if it's in a helpful statement.

Having different views and idea's are what make a forum great. What I've learned from this little minor tiff and a few others along the way is everyone has there own way of doing things and even though some of us have more experience then others we are all equal. Hundreds of minds are better then one 😀
That being said one persons misfortunes are others gains, and the more positive input we put in the better off everyone's stuff will be, from soil to crazy protection strategies. In my opinion getting totally none hardy palms and hardy palms through a really hard winter depending where you live is what this hobby is all about (just an opinion). Just think we could collect stamps! (No offense to any stamp collectors 😆 )

Happy Spring to All,
Bill

I really tend to agree with Paul and Jim here. I've been growing things since I was a kid also (I'm only in my mid/late 30s), but nothing special. Veggies, roses, many pine species, etc. Normal things that are common here. I really got into palms only a few years ago, at least hardy palms. Indoor/non-hardy palms and tropicals I've always had though. What fun/challenge is there to growing the normal stuff that everyone else around you grows? That's what makes this hobby so special to me, the outside the box "crazy" things. Arctictropical (poster on Gardenweb) is a classic example of why we do this. I'm growing palms 2 full zones outside their hardiness range myself. There's such satisfaction in coming home to see green palms in the yard in Minnesota! Neighbors and passers by stop and look, ask questions, stare in admiration. And like Jim, given the chance I'll talk their ear off! Also like Jim, I'm here to learn from others and present my findings (including my mistakes so others may not suffer the same fate). I'm under no delusion that there's no risk or that some plants won't make it. It's the successes that keep it going. Sure windmill palms won't make it here without protection. Elaborate protection? Well that's a matter of opinion. The protection needed here is to me easy and well worth it. Some people might think it's crazy and not worth the effort to cover trees for up to 90 days per year. I may think some people who spend all summer weeding an acre of tomatoes are wasting their time. Grapefruit sized tomatoes don't make me jump for joy, a green palm tree in my Minnesota yard does. So does 10+ foot musa basjoos, and they are just as hardy in my zone as most premium rose bushes. They require the exact same winter pruning and covering/mulching. Even though I dug up my musas last fall, many people here didn't and they come back just like the fancy roses do when the foam rose bush covers (used for bananas and roses) is removed in spring. Additionally I've wintered Florida Needle Palm here in MN without heat and it survived. I've also wintered yuccas without any protection and they are growing nicely. None of these are supposed to be hardy here. Ok, I've got to quit writing. For some reason when it gets this long I can't see what I'm typing anymore. It keeps bouncing under, it must be a limiter or something. Sorry this was not cut into seperate paragraphs too (same reason). Oh, and Jim I've got to know what it is you have recently learned! Email me if you don't want to post it yet...

Paul has already brought the science aspect in here, but I'd like to elaborate anyways.
There is a major structural problem in science in that uninteresting findings are rarely published. Every scientist--including myself--has file cabinets full of quality research along the lines of, "we looked really hard and did not find X in Y." Science would be better off if that was known, but we think it is too much effort for too little reward. So we file it and forget it.
Back to palms. What if 100 of us planted a Bizzy. And protected the heck out of them. I can safely predict 95 of us would lose it but 5 would manage to keep it alive. Those 5 would post proud photos and we would all applaud them and pass those photos around. What about he other 95 of us? If this forum is to "work", we all need to share the information that the Bizzy we took such good care of died anyways.
I think part of why I have trouble with Trachy is that the success stories are told and re-told and so as a newcomer to the hobby I started out taking them for granted. I would have had an easier time of it if I had been more familiar with stories like Jim's.
So, have us newcomers been encouraged to share those stories of plant death by all this? Heck no. I bought three needle palms today. I'll proudly tell you in a year that they are alive and healthy. Did I also buy something crazy like a Bizzy? I'll never say as Barrie might come after me with guns a blazin'. --Erik

Sometimes we have to resort to drastic measures-

I have definitely been quick to pull the plug on young specimens such as Sabals,
I started with some that were to young(only strap leaves)and they were very hard to protect
as they are more sensitive then more mature plants.
There is something to be said for starting with larger sized plants,
can't beat the bling factor and they do tend get a foothold fast.

My plan was always to do as many as I could(cactus and palms,etc) at once and use different protection
strategies to learn as much about all of them as I can.
I have used about 7-8 different methods so far and I think they all can work.
Tree ferns will be a challenge this winter,I am looking forward to it!

We have had a VERY warm spring averaging 10+ (F) over avg-this has caused many banana plants
to be working on their second leaf already when normally I would be lucky to have them in the ground
this early!

ANYWAY- here are some pics of what's been going on lately

Washys-
one in front was overwintered and is working on a second leaf.
One in back was planted April 1-or so

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

TETRAPANEX-
opening up for business 😀

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

ORINOCO-
overwintered in basement,cut down from about 5'
as it was mushy on top-busting loose!

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

ARUNDO DONAX-
putting on some speedy growth,it will have to
for it to stay ahead of the Itineran banana planted in front of it.

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Basjoos enjoying the warm weather and getting ready to open some more serious leafage

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

One of the wagxforts(maybe hard to see in a picture but.....)
pushing some green spear material up out of the center

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

My beloved Fortunei-maybe not out of it just yet!

First is after cutting it-second is 4 days later

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href=" " target="_blank"><img src=" " border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Inspiring!
--Erik

Good work, Jim! That photo is very inspiring considering that palm was deemed to be:

Dead and no chance (period) of recovery

.
Keep it up! 😀

Cameron.

Sweet Jim!

Thanks Guys
Certainly not mission accomplished by any means but if there was anything you
want to see after an operation that concerns cutting the patients head off.......

I think a new head sprouting would be it!

If you look closely at that last picture you can actually see the divisions of each separate leaf
and as it is cut to face the sun,the beginning of some greening up.

My 2 little ones(1/2" or less diameter-trunks) that I gave no heat this winter(just the styrofoam covers)
are doing the same thing,to small to take a picture of.
These 2 were cut back some time ago and are on the east side of the
house, so recovery is a little/lot 😉 slower.

You can see one of the Fortxwags is looking better too.
The other 2 (Tesan and another Fortxwag)are not moving but
there does appear to be some greenish color in the center-

Bill raised a n interesting point a few days ago about how the trunk will fill out with
it's fibers in the future?
You can kind of imagine what it will do,hopefully this will be documented with it's possible future survival.

Thanks for the encouragement and support everyone 😀

Hey Jim,
Have been really busy, so didn't read this earlier.
Jeez, those first few pics ripped my heart out, especially since they were the first two you planted.
Sorry that yours is not going to make it, Corrosion.

But newer photos look so much more encouraging.
And look what we've learned! Styrofoam is, I believe, Jim's protection choice.
Others here have had super results with styro as well.

Nice to see them respond to warm weather and warm soil.
I do see the leaf segments coming...getting rid of the rot likely saved it (fresh air to fresh tissue).

And that Nainital is fabulous!!!! 😀
Ugly sister is MY Nainital, which I doubt will make it although spear hasn't pulled.
The whole bloody thing looks like crepe paper...brown crepe paper.

A+ for determination, A+ for not giving up.
Barb

Kind words

Thanks Barb

Not to correct but just to be clear(I know there's a lot of info)
the styrofoam was over only the 2 tiny palms that had no heat all, the cut ones where under
the bigger"hoop/cactus house",same fate.
I did as you mention use styrofoam on some of the others(Sabals,Needles,one Trachy)
they are all o.k. no pulls in this group.
There is also the -2 Trachy(not pictured)that pulled 2 days ago,this is
the one I covered late,with the trash cans.
I cut this 2 days ago and it is already pushing a little spear up too.
That makes 3 out of 5 so far,the other 2 have turned a little green in the middle but not moved yet.

Hope your Naini Tal comes back