Ive heard that about sabals eric, but then again, ive heard the opposite. Im assuming this is due to the fact more then temperature determines a plants survival. I have read that needles need to be kept dry during the winter ( or completely buried in snow), and also, I have heard tha tthe trick to needle palms is keeping them a bit wetter. Ive also read, that needles hardines peaks as they grow, so mabey a 5 year old plant has a better chance then say a 2 year old seedling.

What kind of lizard you got?

Eric,

When you hit 1000 posts you can't say your new to palms anymore K 😆 😆 😆

That's a lot of posting to be considered a novice 😉

Bill

I'm not to 1,000 posts yet!
I feel new, although I've been killing palms for a decade now. I have so much to learn. Like how to grow Washingtonia....

I recommend the seed mats as well. Makes a big difference.

I got one recently but haven't used it yet. This is a novice question, but how exactly do you use one? I don't want to fry things....

Plug it in and lay your seed tray, pot, whatever on top of it. They give off heat like a low setting on an electric blanket. I would avoid metal for obvious reasons. And keep them dry for even more obvious reasons.

Eric, the best thing about this hobby, is that you will never learn everything, and so far in my little experience, i cant learn enough. As far as im concerened were all a novice 😛

Canadian- Look at this: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=3351

I bought 2 of those last year and hooked them in to a timer to speed germination (as I said the changes in temperature are nearly always required for germination of banana). I found that the temperature oscillations also helped speed along other seeds, including Sabal.

Rhapidophyllum is a pain in the ass to germinate. I think my best success was at a constant temp of ~32C, and even then I only got 40% germination.

Oh, and also, I think there are people who could be called 'expert' in terms of growing cold hardy plants in cold climates. I would put only a few people in that category (John from Co, Allen Hirsh, and maybe Mike from Niagara). You could also throw people working on cold tolerance in plants at the molecular level in there too, but their info isn't really applicable to the amateur enthusiast. I would put myself someone between the two levels in terms of 'gardening', but would be probably offend my colleagues and profession if I considered myself anything less than an expert in plants in general (esp. breeding system evolution).

Canadian- Look at this: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=3351

Oh, and also, I think there are people who could be called 'expert' in terms of growing cold hardy plants in cold climates. I would put only a few people in that category (John from Co, Allen Hirsh, and maybe Mike from Niagara).

WTF!

What about me?

Just kidding!

Speaking of John in Colorado,here are his numbers for Needle palm and S.minor
leaf hardiness,I did not include soil moisture figures for these 2 as I don't want to belabor the point.
Straight up leaf hardiness-
-22F/-30C (Rhapidophyllum hystrix)
-16F/-27C (Sabal minor)

One caveat to this is R.Hytrix is MUCH more prone to spear loss/pull.

<img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/weathersticker/big2_cond/language/www/US/IA/Fairfield.gif" alt="Click for Fairfield, Iowa Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468" />

 

That heat mat is pretty cool. I might have to get one just to try it out.

I learned the hard way about banana seeds. Ive been through quite a few LOL. Musella seems to not be too picky. Thats the only one ive been able to germinate so far.

In regards to the needle palm... From what ive read, they germinate easier if their stratified ( seeing as their from climates that get below zero during winter ( im referencing north of florida))). Im going to have to try it. Ill throw half in the fridge, and half not. Im still not to sure, on it becasue of how slow they grow. Same wit the Sabal Minor.

Colorado has a weird climate. Its a warmer version of Calgary Alberta. The dryer climate, as well as 5-10C temprature swings ( chinook winds can raise the temps 25C in just a few hours). Still, its interesting to see those numbers. -30C and - 27C..... Im assuming these temps were short lived?

I bought a seed starting heat mat last year, worked great.

Seed flats/pots/trays...everything works.
You can cover the top with a large piece of plastic so that seeds don't dry out.
When germination occurs, just remove the plastic and mist (rather than drench) with water.

Just wish it was bigger.

Our friends just built a house with heated tile floors.
I walked in, complimented them on a beautiful decor, felt the warm tiles under my stocking feet, and said "Hey, great for starting seeds".
Homeowners weren't very impressed...not gardeners, I guess. 😐

Barb

Jesse- Yes the temps John uses as absolute lows are applicable to freezes of short duration (at least in terms to extreme cold) and with the caveat that they need to be drought stressed prior to the freeze event. He bases those numbers on sugar content of the leaves, but does not consider any 'anti-freeze' proteins that are also present in the leaves. I still can't beleive that no one has been engineering palms with increased expression of anti-freeze proteins (or, maybe someone is working on it...)

It should also be noted that those numbers are not applicable in a wetter (more humid) type climate. I don't know how much cold a properly acclimatized needle could take here before leaf damage would show. I suppose that it would be in the neighbourhood of -18C for a new palm, and anywhere from -22C (or colder) for a mature specimen. As Jim said needles are VERY prone to spear pull.

I do recommend a seed-heat mat. Those things are gold!

Hmmmm that makes sence to me. When their drought sressed im assuming that they would put their roots deeper, going beyond the frost line. I bet someone has tried to get a plant with more antifreeze. But (please correct me if im wrong), theres more to cold hardiness of a plant besides their "antifreeze". You know more about it then me, but to me the easiest way to acomplish that is to cross a hardier lant with a non hardier plant geneticly, and tissue culture them. OR just take a knownhardy specimin ( ie thebugarian trachys), and tissue culture it.

Now, wouldnt plants in a location thats borderline, or plants in an area that recives harsh, yet short freezes, eventualy produce seed that has more anti freeze properties? Wouldnt this be the plants natural survival technique to ensrure the survival of the species in a new location? I know cells have the ability to mutate and survive in areas in which they normaly wouldnt survive ( im refering to the lactose experiment where the scientist put cells that couldnt digest lactoce, in a lactoce only enviroment for food..... all of the cells mutates and got rid of the gene that made them unable to digest lactate, they all survived). This may be different in the case of a whole being, where all cells are part of the one life form. I was having a discussion in another forum about lants producing seeds that have a better chance of producing seeds that are better adapted to their enviroment. I was told this is wrong. If it does occur it can take 10 000 years for it to happen. But what about areas that seen drastic climate change in a short period of time? Say, the sahara. Scientist figure that it only took 100 years for the sahara to form. Yet there are plants there that survive ( the duom paln of egypt for example).

Sorry for ranting LOL. This stuff interests me to no end LOL

Jesse- This is far too complex to post here...

The reason that drought stressed plants can handle more cold, is that they have to produce the proteins etc. to keep their leaves from loosing water (i.e. there is more 'stuff' in the cells and inter cellular spaces). This 'stuff' makes it so the leaves are protected form external stresses, including cold. There is also an additional benefit to John's climate that isn't often discussed, but has been noted and known is other species for a while. A sharp cold early in the winter will cause more damage than one later. Ok. But, if it stays cold, the plant also has to keep using energy to produce more of the 'stuff' to keep from getting damaged. After a while there is a peak of cold tolerance (say in December) and then there is a gradual lessening of the ability of the plant to react to cold (it gets less hardy). When the cold is short lived, it gives an immense advantage to the plant. What we have to deal with here is that when it gets below freezing, it can stay there for a month!

I'll try to find the graph of this and post it here.

Actually Paul

I find my palms are more cold hardy as the winter progresses,
they can take single digits 5-10(f)-12 to -15c by mid- late Jan.

Johns climate has 2 distinct advantages-

1.Mountain climate gradually see colder nights which gives the palms time
to harden off.

2.Johns climate is dry humidity/rainfall,for the most part
without over simplifying things to much.

So his palms have a nice warm summer to make all those wonderful carbs/sugar
and then he keeps them dry so the carb/water ratio is higher,so his palms have lower freeze thresholds.

This was why my palms were so damaged last year,no cold weather prior to the Arctic cold when it hit.

Oct-Nov avg 42-56(f) 5c to 14c with basically no freezing temps and quite wet..
December avg was 14 to 34(f) -10 to 1c my palms were destroyed.
Except the slower growing ones!

My palms are already drought stressed this year-

No doubt this year will be different,just over an inch of rain since mid Sept and many nights
by the time winter hits will no doubt have been in the 20s(f)0 to -6c or less!

This is what i was thinking about. I think one of the advantages that john has, is the fact he can have nights as low as say, -30C, but the following day, they can raise to 18C during the winter. Also if im not mistakin, colorado can also have temps that are very cool with a push of arctic air, dropping the nights to the single digits (celcius).

A while ago i remember reading up on this ( slow and steady drops in temps, vs a one or 2 day drop of temps). When i covered up my Fargesia rufa, I waited till mid december ( besides it being a mild year). The lows were -5C one night at -10C. Regardless it was exposed to frost quite a few nights before i multched the crap out of it. Im going to be doing the same thing this year, with all my bamboo.

In regards to the temps staying so low...... Protection like scottys would make a world of difference. Or like artictropical. the hard part is raising the temps to above freezing during the day.

I find my palms are more cold hardy as the winter progresses,
they can take single digits 5-10(f)-12 to -15c by mid- late Jan.

Jim- I can't speak to palms from a scientific perspective, the info above comes from a paper on Rhododendron acclimatization and hardiness that I can't seem to find right now. It explains how hardiness in a few cultivars changes over the winter, it details exactly what I thought did NOT happen (i.e. a build to a peak hardiness in December followed by a slow loss of hardiness)! I hope someone does the same work on palms, it would be interesting to see how palms at different levels of drought respond in a controlled environment as the winter proceeds.

This is not about cold acclimatization, it's about physiology.

I do wonder how much the sugars (carb:water) vs. the proteins contribute to freeze tolerance.

An interesting topic for sure. I really don't know enough about the physiological changes at the molecular level, I don't know if anyone has published on this in palms.

We're I to try to make transgenic hardy palms, I think I would use Yucca glauca as the 'tool-shop' and try to work out it's cold tolerance pathways, then clone these into a palm... I know that others have suggested Spruce, but I think that another monocot would be much easier to use!