I hope you did get what you wanted. That one true takil that you see pictures of in books in rome was supposed to not be as cold hardy as T. Fortunei in any form. There were other T. takils that were supposed to be planted around the same time as the Takil in rome. Most of the Takils planted north of rome all died. The one in rome lived because rome is a warm place. When it comes down to it T. Fortunei in its many adapted variations is the most cold hardy of the trunking Trachycarpus family. This is mostly from what I read in some journal somewhere.

I hope you did get what you wanted. That one true takil that you see pictures of in books in rome was supposed to not be as cold hardy as T. Fortunei in any form. There were other T. takils that were supposed to be planted around the same time as the Takil in rome. Most of the Takils planted north of rome all died. The one in rome lived because rome is a warm place. When it comes down to it T. Fortunei in its many adapted variations is the most cold hardy of the trunking Trachycarpus family. This is mostly from what I read in some journal somewhere.

Okay, here we go... First off, let me say that I think we should let the plants do the talking. If they survive the cold, great that's what we want, if not., oh well, at least we tried and had fun doing it! The Trachycarpus issue is still a major debate among the hardcore trachyholics, and actually people can get very sore. Please don't read anymore of my rambligs if you're not interested, or if you do and can clarify some issues for me, please do! I do know about phylogenetics, but am not an expert on Trachycarpus. I am merely a palm fanatic writing on a subject that I am passionate about!

Here is what I know: First, what was thought to be T. takil was sold in the USA turned out to actually be T. wagnerianus. Next, this was figured out, and we started growing 'true takil', which turned out to be T. nanitial, which is probably a close relative of T. fortunei (though it obviously shows great deviation from fortunei, as does another close relative, wagnerianus...). This mistake was caused by someone not checking the seed supply properly (you may have heard about the phony T. princeps seeds from a few years ago... same sort of thing)... Okay, so now this mess has been figured out. And Europalms is selling seeds for T. takil 'true takil', which is a palm most closely related to T. oreophilius and T. 'Manipur' (ukhrulense).

To add a final twist to this, a German thesis using DNA sequence data (ITS sequence as well as restriction fagment analysis) of the Trachycarpus genus was written a couple years ago. There were some very interesting, to me anyway, outcomes from this work. Trachycarpus princeps seems to be composed of 2 distinct species, one related to fortunei, geinisectus, and wagnerianus; the other mot closely related to T. nanus. Trachycarpus takil (called 'Indian form') allies closely with T. ukhrulense (Manipur), and T. oreophilus. Lastly, in a couple analyses in the appendix of this thesis a comparison between the Rome takils and those from India are made, and the two groups of plams appear to be more closely related to other members of the genus then to each other... Now, I don't know whether that means they actually represent distinct species (for simplicities sake I hope not) I just thought that was interesting.

I could also go into the debate about the climate where the 'Indian' takils are found, but I will just say that it gets cold (it is at 8000ft on a north facing slope! For comparison, the city of Nanitial, at a slightly lower elevation and with a moderating lake has hit temperatures below -5C in recent memory). Will it prove harier then fortunei? Probably not. But I'm going to try to be sure!

Cheers,
Paul

That must have been one tough or hungry rabbit. Our neighborhood rabbit tried my Yucca flacida earlier this winter and walked away without eating any leaves.

I wish you success in germinating the seed.

Allen

Good info Paul 😀

Macario, good info 😀

Hi Paul, welcome to the site.

Interesting stuff.
You might be interested in a previous discussion on this--albeit not to the DNA level--
and if Barrie's around (hallooooooo! Barrie!) I'm sure he'll jump in.

This was the only discussion I could find (of several):
http://www.palmsnorth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1288&highlight=takil+nanital+trachy

Every time I hear about that mountain in Nainital, it's grown another thousand feet 😆 😆

For those who are willing to pay the premium, DNA will one day allow palm fanatics to purchase viable seed that is, say, 1/4 Trachycarpus takil, and 3/4 "Survived Vancouver's Worst Winters Trachy."

Seeds could have a pedigree, like a Purebred Dog 😐
Barb

this is one of the reasons I have a hard time paying big money for seeds or plants. There are lots of variables and germination issues with most seeds, plus when buying seeds, you really have no idea of what you are getting and you are at the mercy of the seed merchants and the gatherers.

I thought that I read in the originial paper that the takil palms grew between 8000-8500 ft on the north facing slopes? Am I mistaken?
I agree about palm seed. Let me just say it's no fun when you spend the money to get some expensive seeds and nothing comes of it... Neither is it fun when you spend big bucks for palms which aren't what they claim to be (thank you very much whoever was responsible for collecting the T. nanital seed!)...
I'd like to see another study of the Trachycarpus using some rapidly evolving genes as opposed to AFLP markers... But that's just my personal opinion!

Thanks for the welcome! Hopefully I'll be a useful contributor!

Paul,

I read the north facing mountain literature too.
Yet another site indicated the mountain at 7,000 feet.
Google Earth will one day include factors such as elevation.
Takil was easy to spell, two other sites differed on the spelling of Nanital (Naini Tal).

rapidly evolving genes
Does that mean mutations?
You're educated on this topic; you'll simply have to teach us 🙂

This Canadian palm lover awaits a palm that won't need winter protection.
It'll be a long wait. 😐
Barb

It's interesting to try and understand the Trachycarpus mystery. Unfortunate that the seeds collected by Martin Gibbons where mislabled or misidentified, initailly thought to be T. takil, and later he retracted that claim realizing they where a form of fortunei from Nanaital.
There's probably many enthusiasts that believe they are growing Trachycarpus takil when in fact it's 'Nanaital'.

Cheers, Barrie.

Hey All! I tried to reply earlier but my internet connection crashed...
So I'll respond in a shorter message.

By rapidly evolving I mean genes that are not under intense selective pressure (i.e genes with high rates of nucleotide substitutions, mutations, insertions, deletions, etc.)...

To add to the takil debate I found one article and reread another one. The palms are found between 2000 and 2500m (6500 and 8200 feet). The interesting thing I found was from an article on the Beccari garden which says: "Though Florence has a sub-Mediterranean
climate, it should be mentioned that
during the cold winter of 1984–85, several
palms died inside the garden, including
Phoenix sylvestris (L.) Roxb., Butia
capitata (Mart.) Becc., Washingtonia robusta
H. Wendl. and Brahea armata S.
Watson. That winter was exceptionally
cold with a lot of snow4, with temperatures
down to –23°C. Interestingly, some
Trachycarpus fortunei died, whereas T.
takil survived. The same observation was
made in the urban area of Florence,
where the author could identify only one
specimen of T. fortunei that exceeds an
age of 20 years. Beccari reported that T.
fortunei was planted as early as 1870 at
several spots in Florence. This leads to the
conclusion that T. takil is as tolerant to
winter frosts as T. fortunei under sub-
Mediterranean climate conditions..."
I might have to take back my comment about T. takil probably not being as hardy as fortunei...

Cheers,
Paul

Full text is available at: http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102007/295.pdf

Paul,

genes that are not under intense selective pressure (i.e genes with high rates of nucleotide substitutions, mutations, insertions, deletions

Thanks for that...I think 😕

Before the 84/85 winter, there was disagreement on what Beccari was growing.
He wasn't clear on which of his three seed sources got seed from where...

So could it be that Trachy fortunei seeds collected from Nainital region are hardier than T.fortunei seeds from 10 miles away...possibly and likely, yes. But they're still T.fortunei.
Barb

Before the 84/85 winter, there was disagreement on what Beccari was growing.
He wasn't clear on which of his three seed sources got seed from where...

So could it be that Trachy fortunei seeds collected from Nainital region are hardier than T.fortunei seeds from 10 miles away...possibly and likely, yes. But they're still T.fortunei.
Barb

Barb,
I hope that my explaination of rapidly evolving genes was satisfactory!

I've had to go back and check the phylogenies from this thesis to see what the difference between the T. takils in India and those in Florence (and Rome)...
In the 2 phylogenies including 'takil' specimens from both 'Indian' and Europe ('Rome/Florence') both groups remain seperate from the rest of the Trachycarpus (The Indian group being closer to the rest of the genus in one, the Rome/Florence group in the other... most closely related to T. princeps (T. 'manipur and oreophilius are not included)...) In both cases, however, they are clearly seperate from T. fortunei... There is an exception though, one specimen of takil from the University of Rome is clearly not a takil (apparently it's closely related to T. wagnerianus)! Talk about confusion!

I think the problem here is that we have a group of palms that are all EXTREMELY closely related and spinning of data can lend support to either side of the argument! I'm inclined to follow the phylogeneitc data that says that most of the 'takils' in India and Florence/Rome are not closely related to T. fortunei, and that these palms are very cold tolerant. I like this story much better then the one that says that all the takil's in Italy that have survived cold temps are fortunei!

If you want to continue to discuss this please send me an email at p _ ont5a at Yahoo dotca (take the spaces out)... I find this topic fascinating!

Paul,
one more thing...did you notice that some of the Beccari garden observations were "from outside the fence" (or something like that). Perhaps even the ordinarily-willing Ms.Beccari found these researchers tedious the second and third time round and wouldn't open the gate? 😆

I admit I should've stayed in university. Then I'd be able to keep up with you.
the only thing that remains is my curiosity.

What do we know now?
1. rapidly evolving genes (producing hybrids).
2. Recent Trachywhatever from India (and likely China) are considerably more cold hardy than old "strains" of Trachy from 50+ years ago, likely pointing to (1).

Theory: I bet even Marty Gibbons wants to see more DNA research.

It is fascinating, Paul, I agree.
But I'll stop now 'coz phylogenies (phylogenes?) are way over my head.
Thanks for this!
Barb

Thanks for this Barb! I always have fun discussing/debateing the trachycarpus issue!
How are your palms doing so far this winter?