Phoenix ?? cold hardy in zone 7a

FTR, I did not believe the story about the origin of the seedlings I was given when I first heard it and don't now. Maybe they were started from store-bought dates (like Barb has) and the story got twisted in the re-telling? Maybe the palm owner lived in south Texas not south Tulsa and that part of the story was what was mixed up? I'll never know.
But damir's story has me thinking about them again!

propagated from suckers, NOT seed due to the inability to say what the offspring will be.

Jesse, yes but isn't that only because they want commercial date production, i.e. high quality dates.

Erik,
Nice CIDP.
But I'll eat my shoes if that second pic is a Phoenix...of any kind.

Barb

😆 😆 😆

Any guess?

Looks liek my washy seedlings 😀

I'm drawing a blank, Erik. 😉

damir,
this may interest you on P.dacty... -7C low.

http://www.plantoftheweek.org/week432.shtml

Barb

today i went there again. and i spoke to lady which palms belongs to. she said that her husband is wrong. the seeds of this palms are phoenix dactylifera, true date palm. she bought it in local shop, about 4 to 5 years ago, shop called konzum, like walmart in USA. specie is deglet nour. this dates are 99% present on market here in croatia, besides mozafati from iran -black sweet dates, my favorite ones. palms are very close to the house, sout side. never protected. she said that only 1st year they froze to the ground but in spring they recovered. the biggest looks great, she will keep it to herself and rest of it she will give it to me in spring 😉 !!! she has a theory that the palms adjust to new enviroment. if you know what is permaculture, you will know what i think. see it in you tube sepp holzer permaculture. very interesting. in austrian alps, at elevation of around 1500 metres, alpine climate, this mr. holzer grows kiwi,lemons,grape..... all kind of mediterranean fruits..... very interesting thing. must see. who knows, maybe this is the case in this case with this palms???

Dactylifera eh....?

I jsut took a quick look at your climate date. it says your average low for jan is -4C. That would lead me to assume, that lows below say, -8C, are not the norm there? Obviously temps of -13C are possible, but how often does that happen? I think, it may have a chance there for the long end of "short term". Once it gets above that wall, Im not sure how long it will last.

As for permaculture. Im quite familiar with it. I should pick up Holzer's book actually.

The thing is, it may or may not be this situation. IF that family is versed in permaculture, I can see why the placed if where, and why they did. It does tend to teach you quite a bit on microclimtes, and possibly changing those micro climates into something more useful. That is one of the reasons I gained interest in it.

that information about low temps here is not true. this is how it goes. temps of -10 to -15 C every year, now it depens for how long will that be. it can last few days with rising to zero C or above, or it can be couple of weeks below zero, 2 or 3 weeks. temps of -18 C might appear few times in winter, and lowest temp recorded here is -26 C . but i dont remember when that was, since i am not from around here, i moved here 8 years ago. so -15 to -20C not a big deal. but summers are too hot,humid and sunny. ideal for palms like sabal minor,needle palm...

yes, this permaculture is very interesting thing. imagine, growing lemons at those elevations in austrian alps!! lemons!! i know that even in Dalmatia here, lemons froze sometimes. and dalmatia is zone 9 b.

I'm drawing a blank, Erik. 😉

damir,
this may interest you on P.dacty... -7C low.

http://www.plantoftheweek.org/week432.shtml

Barb

it depense what are the conditions in winter. if the soil is dry it can handle much lower temps.
i have one variety of date palm from Turkmenistan. those are made from selection of palms from iran,iraq..... in 1960s i think. some of those survivors even defoliated after -14C, recovered next year and flower and had fruits the same next year. few times in its history of existance, those palms in turkmenistan experienced temps of around -15 -16C. BUT, the soil is dry there over the winter time,arid climate. see the climate data. town is called Turkmenbasy, near Atrek river. friend of mine sent me 3 seeds of those,and now they are 1 and half leaf date palm seedlings, one i gave to other friend. hope in future it can show the hardiness. this is the cold hardest date palm. also somewhere i saw that Zahedi variety from Iraq is more cold tolerant than the others.... i have lot of seeds from date palms, i eat the dates and there are about 30 seeds to plant. now all the seeds i have i will plant outdoor,if something survives like those in the pisc, great! if not.. i'll get those that survived 😉 .

damir,

that's fascinating!!!!!

Wonderful that you'll be able to dig out the others in spring.

Yes I've seen those pics of med fruits that are grown in the Alps, and palms in Switzerland, etc. etc.
Really enjoyed viewing all those pics years ago.

Here are some P.dactylifera I started from edible dates.

<a href=" http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/2126525973/" title="DSC00720 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src=" " width="640" height="480" alt="DSC00720"></a>

Yes, OK, they must be a Phoenix then!!!! 😀 😀
Wonderful news, as Phoenix dacty and others grow in Zone 8, especially with some protection:

http://www.aqualityplant.com/AQPBlog.nsf/dx/01182010105659PMRPI6NJ.htm

And wouldn't it be WONDERFUL if it were a P.dacty :compress:
the blue on the seedling at left is wonderful.

Now I'm really getting excited, damir!!!!

Barb

barb, if you thing of those palms in Swiss, those places are zone 8 ore 9. there is no much trouble growing palms outdoor. there are jubaeas,trachy,butia,chamaerops...with no protection, because it is in zones 8 or 9 i think.

barb, you kept seeds too long in water. a month? 2 or 3 days in water are just fine.it grows in desert, too much water can kill it. dates are very easy to grow. just needs deeper pots (-as for the all other palms) to grow well,good drainage,full sun and not too much of water.

this is very interesting story down in links. this palm germinated after 2000 years! now what other plant specie can do that?!!
rgds

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080612-oldest-tree.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judean_date_palm

damir, yes I did keep the seeds too long in water.
I have only 2 new date palms that germinated 😛
damir, how deep do you plant date palm seeds? Just covered? or an inch down?

Yes, had read about Methuselah growing...fabulous!
Wonder if there's a photo of how big it is now.

And I think Cameron has a date palm seed that he brought back from Egypt years ago...wonder how that's doing.

i have lot of seeds from date palms, i eat the dates and there are about 30 seeds to plant. now all the seeds i have i will plant outdoor,if something survives like those in the pisc, great! if not.. i'll get those that survived icon_wink.gif .

Wonderful that you have so many varieties of dates available in your markets.
I'll have to visit one of our specialty stores to see if they have more than just Medjool; will look for some Deglet Noor.

This topic rekindled my love for Phoenix palms, so here are a few excerpts from my Palm encyclopedia:

Phoenix genus includes 13 palms, 9 with clustering trunks, 4 with solitary.
All species freely hybridize one with another.

P. theophrasti "similar to P. dactylifera and may be a form of it; however, more clustering, smaller stature, shorter and more bristly leaves. Similar to P.dactylifera in needs".

Going to go find some more edible dates! :compress:

...and will water my old CDIP today!

Barb

here is the archive list from "rarepalmseeds.com"

Phoenix acaulis Dwarf Date Palm
Phoenix canariensis Canary Island Date Palm
Phoenix dactylifera Date Palm
Phoenix iberica
Phoenix loureiri var. humilis Mountain Date Palm
Phoenix loureiri var. loureiri
Phoenix loureiroi var. humilis (Kashmir) Kashmir Mountain Date Palm
Phoenix loureiroi var. humilis (Khyber)
Phoenix loureiroi var. pedunculata Mountain Date Palm
Phoenix paludosa Mangrove Date Palm
Phoenix pusilla Ceylon Date Palm
Phoenix reclinata Senegal Date Palm
Phoenix reclinata (Hybrid) Date Palm
Phoenix roebelenii Pygmy Date Palm
Phoenix roebelenii (Mekong) Wild Pygmy Date Palm
Phoenix roebelenii (Variegated) Variegated Pygmy Date Palm
Phoenix rupicola Cliff Date Palm
Phoenix sylvestris Silver Date Palm
Phoenix sylvestris (Robusta) Robust Silver Date Palm
Phoenix sylvestris (Round Seed)
Phoenix theophrastii Cretan Date Palm

cold hardest of all phoenix palms is phoenix theophrasti "golkoy". turkish date. not true date, maybe edible.

here is the pic

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http://www.fousdepalmiers.fr/html/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=5856&start=15

here some forum in french..

also here some great shots of theo palm. also one hot chick at the beach 8)

http://forum.palmi.bg/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=142

Great pics of a great palm damir.
Good links too.
That last photo reminds me of Erik's photo of "coconuts" at the beach... 😆 😆

Had a surprise today while shopping for Deglet Noor dates.
Recognized the package...so I've already got two that germinated 😛

<a href=" http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6757076245/" title="DSC05313 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src=" " width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05313"></a>

Only Medjool and Deglet Noor available here.
Must be your proximity to N.Africa/Middle East/Greece that allows Poland to stock a better variety than we have.

Since the P.theophrastii has "more bristly leaves" than most Phoenix...dangerous at repotting time.

Barb

also here some great shots of theo palm. also one hot chick at the beach 8)

http://forum.palmi.bg/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=142

Very nice palms. 😀