I've been going over this for the last few days.
I love climate and always try to figure out what city has a "similar" climate to where I live. Of course I always pick a palm filled city and try to tell myself it's so close I must be able to do it here. It's nice to day dream.
So I've been figuring out the Growing Degree Days for various cities in the States and Canada like was suggested in another post. Then I take them and compare them and then I began to wonder about the AHS Heat Zones which some people consider useless or not that helpful anyway.
I understand, hopefully correctly, that if I don't have enough heat for certain palms, etc they won't really grow much. I know I'll plant them anyway, that goes without saying but I'm trying to understand this a little better.
Also I understand that a climate, let's say like Victoria or Seattle, may be able to have lots of palms survive but not necessarily prosper or perhaps eventually pine and die off as there is not enough heat for them, or growing degree days. I read this about someone's palm tree, maybe a Date Palm, that never got frosted but eventually succumbed to perhaps not enough GDDs.
Also I have read Dr. Hirsch's statements about palm tolerance and Dr. Francko's book and then John's (is he a Dr. too?) in Colorado with regards to being able to restore a palm's mass the next growing year if you've got the GDDs... or protect it so you don't have the biomass to restore.
I"m not sure I'm making sense and perhaps will be able to make more sense of this all in a few more days.
Some heat zone 8 cities would include (if I've counted right): Carlsbad, NM and El Paso, TX, both are 'palm cities'.
Heat zone 3 cities would include: Chilliwack, BC and Flagstaff, AZ. The first is a palm city but not the second due to winter lows though I'm sure needles and minors might be okay though supposedly Rhapidophyllum is a heat zone 3 which makes no sense to me.
The USDA figures out heat zones in GDD above 30 °C.
Is there a place online that posts the heat zones of various palms, yuccas, etc? I have an old Monrovia catalogue that lists a bunch and they make sense for the most part though they say T. fortunei would be a heat zone 8 which is the same as a Canary Island Date Palm... wrong. Perhaps the Trachy would be similar to the Chamaerops at heat zone 3.
I will plant various palms regardless but I'm trying to understand the climate thing a bit more. 😉
Not familiar with the heat zone.Sounds like you understand the rest of it.
Keeping the leaves on and healthy over winter is a good plan.
Even though a Washy would not survive here going on GDD,it would make sense that it could make it,if it kept it's leaves(better to many it's than if's 🙄 ) year round.Look at wxmans,(Washy)not in decline and putting on new leaves each year.
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Yeah, keeping leaves over winter is key I think. Remember iowapalmz washy? It looked good for the first few years, but looking at his photobucket, it looked like crap going into the winter it died. Just not enough GDD to keep regrowing a full crown.
My washy that defoliated last winter from a GFI failure only regrew 4 fronds this year. It's definitely headed for decline if that happens again. I bet if it defoliated this winter, it'd regrow maybe 2 next year, then die, etc. I potted it up along with my butia to get them bigger and more massive. Another reason is financial budget this winter. 🙁 It'll be cheaper for me to grow light them in the basement than run heat for them outside.
The washy I planted out front that is doing so well was way more massive to begin with too. I think that's also key to getting it to survive. Plant a healthy, massive one, keep the leaves, and it'll prosper. One I planted out front this year only grew one frond, I think they were keeping the crown and trunk too wet at the nursery as it was really soggy when I got it in spring. It seems to be looking healthier late this season, so I'm hoping it takes off next year.
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Agree that a more mature palm whose fronds and roots can be kept healthy during winter has the best chance.
I wouldn't trust the unrevised Cold Rating Database either, even though it was THE authority for a long time.
But even a more mature palm needs to have its roots well established in the ground, i.e. several years of good winter protection before it becomes more hardy.
It's been said palms take a long time to grow, they also take a long time to die, often not showing the decline for a couple of years. Just a loss of vigor year upon year.
But you guys have obviously got most of the formula right...
I'll learn lots from you.
Barb
😀
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If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.
And I'm learning from you all as well. Thanks.
I guess this is what they mean by a "cold zone" and a "warm zone." So a Pacific NW zone 8 won't have as many heat units so a lower GDD than a North Carolina zone 8.
Thus if I am in zone 6b/7a which I like to think most days than I am in a cool one I guess because my GDDs (about 2200) are not like Murphysboro, Ill (supposedly a zone 7a) and coming in at 4984 GDDs.
Yes, protect the plant at all costs if I want and I will want.
Mind you I often wonder if I should get a fast growing palm seed and put some "annual" bedding palms into my yard for summer. Sure then my basement would be filled with them in the winter because I'd feel too guilty to let them go.
Hey, my Sabal McCurtain seed and a NE Texas S. minor seed showed up today. Gosh, now I have to do something with them. Off to figure out what to do...... 😕
There are some really good posts on PN previous discussions w. pics of home-made incubators.
http://www.palmsnorth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1641&highlight=drybath+incubator
Enjoy propagating those seeds!
Take lots of pics too.
Barb
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If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.
Wx-I think another reason your Washy out front is doing so well is a better micro-climate,that black wall is a big help,put some black rock/mulch down around it and it will be even better!
Barb,I agree on palms taking a long time to die,jez my T.wag took 2 years to die after I left it on the porch in Nov 2007,(trying to give it some cold to build in some cold hardiness)it was shipped bare root(e-bay)and got some root damage,man 2 years to die and this was a small palm.You may remember that post about fertilizing it.
I will say that with the exception of say Nanus (or Licuala out of the tropics) that palms,esp-Trachys,Washys and even Sabals should grow "fast" if they are healthy.In a good environment a Trachy should be able to grow 5-15 leaves April-Oct-Washy 10+ and Sabals 3+ at least.If your palms are not growing at a good pace something is missing. 🙄
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Jim,
The new washy I planted out front by my sidewalk only grew one frond this summer. When I got it in May, if you remember, the trunk was all spongy and moist. After it dried out I was able to peel a bunch of old leaf bases off. Also the fronds were longer and skinnier than my other washy (if that makes sense). You think its in a decline of some sort? I'm wondering if there is hope for it to make a strong comeback next summer.
I'm hoping it was spending this summer repairing itself and growing roots, but those aren't visual, so you never know!
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Wxman.I would dig it up and bring inside ,if it is not growing well,I think they need at least 4 leaves to get through the winter well.One thing is that your protection method worked well so it is possible that it would make it,however if there is anything going on with the roots(there probably is)it may not make it through the winter and even if you do dig it up,it may take all winter/spring and next summer to recover to planted out the summer after.I had the same problem with one I bought in Nov 2007,it just now has recovered,I planted it this spring and it now has about 5 healthy leaves on it,my Butia is working on it's 4th,I would normally dig both up at this stage but I think I will go with styrofoam enclosures and keep all the leaves on and if they look good next summer I may try to overwinter my Bismarkia! That would be awesome to have one of these in the ground but I need more confidence in protection to try this.
Another thing I think is VERY important now is leaving all the leaves on the palms,I was rereading the CO.Springs site again and one of the interesting points he made about Trachys(for sure,possibly other palms IMO)is that when cold temps hit they can pull carbs out of the leaves and back to the spear,etc,creating a higher carb/water ratio,the skinny is that this would increase,or should I say lower the freezing point acting as a natural anti-freeze! it does allow the tips/outer parts of the leaves to damage/freeze but it protects it's core just like our bodies do when we start to get cold.
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Wxman I think you very well might have the nicest northern washy that was over wintered. Your dark wall surely has lots to do with it. My south facing washy has grown much bigger then the back yard ones even though they all have heat cables. I think even though My GDD's are 3300-3500 the heat cables must boost atleast 500-800 GDD. That would put them in a nice spot for growth over the year and winter. They have grown far more with the cabels then they would have without. I think you made the right choice digging them up for the winter! Winter is tough on these guys without the pefect protection like you gave yours last year.
Bill
