I agree that Needle palms are very hardy, but the only one I've lost to the cold had lost all the trunk covering. It had about 15 inches of completely clear trunk and, BTW, the only completely clear trunk I've ever seen on them. OTOH, other Needles with still-covered trunks survived 30 years in the same location, as did S. minor, S. etonia, and common windmills.
Best Wishes,
merrill

I don't think anyones data compares with the research from Co springs Co. but I don't get him saying he does not go along with the findings on Tesan. First he said his palms survived -15 or at least -11 and then he says he does not believeTesan claim of -4,Tesan is a form of fortunei so it would be hardy to -15 if fortunei is that hardy,what I think should be focused on with Tesan(because it is going to be at least as hardy as fortunei anyway)is the extremely unique growth habit of these palms from a very young age!they are a more robust and stouter version of fortunei which is very desirable in a Trachy,I think it will end up being discovered that cold hardiness is as cold hardiness does when it comes to Trachys,the order with maybe a slight edge to waggies is probably Wagnerianus,Takil-Tesan-Fortunei and not in a particular order although I think waggies are the toughest from what I have seen so far,they seem to have a tighter crown area,who knows about Takil?I think very,very few can say they actually have one.Fortunei is proven to have survived from -10 to -20 when mature and well established,I think Tesan,Takil and Wagnerianus could too but have not heard of any mature plants(Takil-Wagnerianus) surviving this yet,I think the real question is can any trachycarpus survive prolonged zone 5 cold and survive?can they take -15 and live if the temps remain below freezing for 2 more weeks?I have not seen any info on prolonged cold,in most cases the weather"warmed" back up after these events.

Welcome aboard merrill ... You mention a needle palm that had "lost all of the trunk covering" How did this come to be with it's defensive armament? Obviously a necessary requirement in cold weather defense as pointed out in your experiment. Proof you can still lose hardy palms in Florida.

Cheers, Barrie.

Gary,
I know that you're selling the seeds, and I am going to reassert my skepticism on Tesan. First off, MANY people have made claims of survival and even thriving palms is cold zone areas (and, indeed some of these have proven marginally hardier). I will be very happy if it can be proven that your 'tesan' strain of fortunei can handle cold better... As of yet, it is still in the realm of the other polar palms where extrodinary claims of hardiness are made but not substantiated. You can't blame me for being skeptical, afterall the only information we have to go on is that which you yourself are giving us! I have seen nothing from a third party source that would lead me to believe it is something different.

Here is an easy way to take some of the mystery out fo your palms (and will likely also increase sales):
1) Give us examples of the palms in habitat (i.e. in beijing)
2) Give us the raw temerature data to show that the palms experience temperatures down to below -20C and sustained subfreezing cold (there are many examples of Trachycarpus handling cold to below -10f (-12f) if the cold is brief and dry). I know that the average low in beijing in the winter is 15f, but what I don't know is what the temperatures are like in the city itself...
3) A picture of the thermometer with the palm showing the temperature is below -20C.

This shouldn't be too difficult. You could also submit one of the palms to a reasearcher to see what sort of temperatures it can handle in the lab. If this has been done you can also send me the pdf file and I'll gladly have it translated. I'm sure that Dr. Hirsh would be willing to test tesan as well... If you send me dry leaf tissue I can also have some of the rapidly evovling genes or intergenic spacers sequenced to see if they are different from fortunei. Not likely, but if they are it could lend crdiility to your theory. I don't mind doing this, in fact I do it for a living (with other plants). You can send me a pm.

John, Good to hear from you, I think the picture you sent was of a smashed up car... If you're still doing the palm testing, I suggest you try some of Banana Joe's waggy x forunei seedlings, they seem to be the only Trachycarpus that is standing up to the cold in Niagara, Ontario (zone 6b). I'm looking forward to this season when I'm going to plant out about 50 of them in my zone 5a climate just to see! Or perhaps I should say 'see how quickly they perish'! Can you give me an idea of the size change in the cell wall structure after cold damage, I would like to check to see if that poor little Trachy I've been tortureing for the past 2 years has responded to defoliation by increaseing its cell wall thickness...

Joe, I've started a bunch of wild collected Wahingtonia filifera 'Moapa' palms from seed. I was hoping you'd be willing to try one (or a few) on Salt Spring once they've germinated? I'd like to know if there is any performace difference between this wild strain and others. http://www.xeri.com/Moapa/wf-hr-part1.htm if you have time to read it.

Cheers,
Paul Ont 5a

Paul,I don't have any problem with Garrys claims except that he uses the 5F mark for hardiness of fortunei and then -5 for tesan,so I guess just going by the math he is implying that Tesan is approx 10F hardier than fortunei and grows in zone 6/7 but these zones are so variable I mean I am in the same zone basically as Co.springs but the weather is very different!johnco5b stated that trachys outpreformed tests done in the lab so I'm not sure a straight up lab test is the answer unless tesan showed to be much more hardy in the actual test,as far as testing the leaves go I have a connection to some Tesan palms with a few fans going,probably the most mature palms of this type in the states as far as I know and I could send you some fan leaves at the end of the growing season if you could get them tested that way or if you want I will give you the contact info and you can order a few,(they are from a private seller who got seeds a few years ago).
In Johns experiments in Co he mentioned that the trachys adapted to cold with more exposure,I wonder if it wasn't a combination of the palms maturing and adapting,I have noticed in Sabals that their strap leaves are nowhere near as resistant to cold as the fans which on my S.louisiana are completly undamaged as opposed to the strap leaves that are fried(except on brazoria,go figure)anyway if you don't want to get some tesan from this guy I will send you some leaves from tesan in the fall when they are more mature if that will work.Its interesting you brought up fortxwag I have 3(had 1 died)fortxwags,1 was not very healthy and was killed by a combo of .75"of rain and 18F temps that followed 70s in early Nov of last fall,of the 2 that lived one had spear pull(and is still solid and healthy) and another in the ground a year longer is fine and still growing,the reason I think its interesting that you brought up this X variety because Tesan has a similar growth habit,stouter trunk,more "fur"smaller leaves and shorter petioles! I recpect your opinion and would be interested in your further comments-take care