Future prosperity for America?

[canadianplant]

Being "rich", shouldnt be having a gazillion dollars, 12 cars and 6 kids, it should be doing having a clear life goal in mind, and being allowed/able to do so. That could be living in a box in the woods for all I care. To each his own

[DesertZone]

having a clear life goal in mind, and being allowed/able to do so. That could be living in a box in the woods for all I care. To each his own

That is how I feel, does not matter the goal, just as long as they have the freedom/guidance to achieve it.

I work with many troubled youth, and I always ask them what thier dreams are, most have given up on the "dream". I try and encourage them to build a savings fund, money fund, stocks or whatever I can do to help. There is so much they can do when they are young that can help them so much in the future.
When I was younger, say grade school/jr high, An older man taught me about business and investing, many years of saving and it is starting show. It helps when someone belives in you.

[lucky1]

Exactly Jesse!

When I was younger, say grade school/jr high, an older man taught me about business and investing

And there is the crux of the matter... training! Someone taking the time/trouble to teach the next generation in addition to your parents.

Kids seem to want stuff NOW...probably because technology is changing so quickly, but that isn't the stuff they should be striving for anyway.
They don't look beyond today because they can't imagine working at a menial job (in most cases) and "achieving" what their parents were able to achieve in 40 years.
Also doesn't help that the media reports their generation will be the first NOT EXPECTED to "do as well" in their lifetimes as their parents.

I must be the only person in North America who doesn't have a cellphone.
Neither does H.
Don't need/want one.
Yet every teenager I see has a cellphone in their hand...what that must cost each month/year!

Good for you, Aaron; it must be a real challenge sometimes to work with troubled kids.
Takes special dedication; doubt I could do that, even with sufficient training.

Barb

[canadianplant]

In my personal observations of people, most parents give just to make the kids happy, and dont seem to build a structure. They have so much excess, and so little time to spend with kids, that most kids seem to learn from each other, culture/subcultures and media. Its a combination of too much crap and parents working so much they cant/dont/wont spend time teaching kids.

Also Barb, I just got a cell phone the other month, so I went most of my life without one. So untill November, there were 3 of us that didnt have phones

[hardyjim]

The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life.

The sad thing is without prosperity, people will also starve and live in very horrid conditions. No one wants to see pollution, drilling, wild lands developed for farming etc, but with over 6 billion people on this earth we can't just go back to the stone ages.

Who realy puts the price/value on material things? Well it is the consumer, we all buy crap we don't need, burn gas we don't have too, fly to far places just to rest. Buy vegetables we could grow in our own back yards. Live in homes that are much bigger than is realy needed for survival, by the way our homes are some of the biggest comsumers of our resources.
This is not all bad, I don't see people fighting to head for comunist countries where most people have very little, besides it that realy better.
So easy to point fingers, rather than stop using our much loved material things. Saving the planted starts at home, not at our neighbors.

Part of the problem is,this is a very simple statement-

"The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life."


and yet it can be perverted to mean something else.

[DesertZone]

Good for you, Aaron; it must be a real challenge sometimes to work with troubled kids.
Takes special dedication; doubt I could do that, even with sufficient training.

Barb

Thanks Barb, but I'm trained or anything like that. I work with them all the time because they are sent to me for community service. But I can't stop myself from wanting to help them out. I bet you would be awesome if you worked around them.

[DesertZone]

Part of the problem is,this is a very simple statement-

"The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life."


and yet it can be perverted to mean something else.

Ok...it's all good

[lucky1]

worked around them

Thanks Aaron.
They might get some of the "tough love" my palms receive

Bet you're getting some snow now with this system...

Barb

[canadianplant]

Good for you, Aaron; it must be a real challenge sometimes to work with troubled kids.
Takes special dedication; doubt I could do that, even with sufficient training.

Barb

Thanks Barb, but I'm trained or anything like that. I work with them all the time because they are sent to me for community service. But I can't stop myself from wanting to help them out. I bet you would be awesome if you worked around them.

You mean making then mow her gigantic lawn and build her palm boxes?

[hardyjim]

Part of the problem is,this is a very simple statement-

"The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life."


and yet it can be perverted to mean something else.

Ok...it's all good

Certainly not picking on you here Aaron-just responding......

on so many of these forums,when these topics come up,you often
see people changing very simple statements around to express there feelings.

Like I am about to do





I like Jacque Fresco's idea's of future planning and his plans for cities in the future.

A lot of people will argue his ideas don't allow people to be free to pursue there own dreams-
but with the planet already past it's limit of sustainable population the only other option will be
full control,including population control and with something like 1% of the population controlling
most of the wealth-who do you think will decide what's what in the future....well,they already do.

The main issue here is wrestling control back from the super wealthy few,that set policy for everyone.

Healthy,well informed people can make better decisions but we don't have that-what we do have
in one example is a health care industry that profits more by keeping people sick than getting them well.

There is already a cure for cancer-do you thing the trillion dollar business of the pharmaceutical companies will ever let
it see the light of day? No way-there is no money in it.

[canadianplant]

Part of the problem is,this is a very simple statement-

"The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life."


and yet it can be perverted to mean something else.

Ok...it's all good

Certainly not picking on you here Aaron-just responding......

on so many of these forums,when these topics come up,you often
see people changing very simple statements around to express there feelings.

Like I am about to do





I like Jacque Fresco's idea's of future planning and his plans for cities in the future.

A lot of people will argue his ideas don't allow people to be free to pursue there own dreams-
but with the planet already past it's limit of sustainable population the only other option will be
full control,including population control and with something like 1% of the population controlling
most of the wealth-who do you think will decide what's what in the future....well,they already do.

The main issue here is wrestling control back from the super wealthy few,that set policy for everyone.

Healthy,well informed people can make better decisions but we don't have that-what we do have
in one example is a health care industry that profits more by keeping people sick than getting them well.

There is already a cure for cancer-do you thing the trillion dollar business of the pharmaceutical companies will ever let
it see the light of day? No way-there is no money in it.

I liked Frescos ideas, until I found out he was basically a fraud.... The concepts are pretty interesting though....

The one problem with him, is that he never really addressed the issue of food, or the allocation of any wealth. IT seems that with his model, it would be a communismish equal spread, but in reality, you wont have equal spread. It doesnt have to be money either. Some places are going to be more mineral rich then others, while others will only be able to grow/build so much and sustain so many people...

That leads to your comment about "the worlds population limit". We dont really know what that is in general. IF you meant "limit", as in the maximum amount of people, living in this way of life/society, then yes, we are definitely at/near/past the maximum amount of people. The real problem there is, oil. Petroleum products enabled our population to double twice in 100 years. Some stats say 9/10 humans are alive to day, strictly due to petroleum based farming techniques or some tool made from petroleum.

I have to say the big problem (stemming from the above paragraph) is the way we grow food. Sure, agriculture has enabled out population to grow. Where once we walked through tended forests to gather what we needed, we take up large plots of land to grow a few species in abundance. We need an area the size of South America to grow the worlds food. IF people tried to grow a portion of their food in local plots, or even in there yard can alleviate the waste of natural spaces, overuse of chemicals and petroleum based fertilizer, and if you use water reserving techniques, you can even lessen the use of water.

The real problem here, is that it takes a lot of people willing to do so, and in todays society of 40-50 hr work weeks and false ideas of abundace/prosparity, most people are unwilling to grow some tomatoes in a pot...

I guess what Im trying to say, is that the world can probably support the 7 billion people we have now, if we can get away from a wasteful, resource heavy society. It wouldnt be too easy, because most species populations are dictated by the resources that species uses in any given habitat. We would basically need a paradigm shift.

[hardyjim]

It is easy to call someone a fraud or communist-if that is how you are programmed to think.

When we run out of resources you may wish they were spread out a little more equally from the start.

[canadianplant]

I didnt mean communism in a negative light, Jim, only the similarities in the all equalness communism is supposed to induce. I also didnt mean anything negative about properly sharing resources, only that its impossible for everyone to get a perfect proportion.

[hardyjim]

But you did call one of the greatest thinkers of our time a fraud....
you may want to dig a little deeper into that and see who it is that would want to discredit him.

[DesertZone]

I like Jacque Fresco's idea's of future planning and his plans for cities in the future.

I think he has some awesome ideas. The problem I see with a city like his is it is based on just one persons idea, would be like living in a hotel/apertment complex. Would be awesome if you don't mind living in a way someone else thinks it best for you.
I think there is much better buildings that fit like a glove with nature not a white hubcap/salad bowl turned upsidedown. Plus I would want my own garden, change things as I see fit. I would not belive a place like that would not have nieghbors fighting if one cut down a tree for a better view.
he is a very highly intellingent person with many good ideas, but people have thier own ideas and I would bet some would vernture out into the wilds looking for their feedom.
I like the collective thought process, all the hectict goings on like an ant pile but somehow it all works together.

[DesertZone]

Bet you're getting some snow now with this system...

Barb

Yes, we got some of the white stuff, not pretty like your snow. So glad it melted off the raod way.

[lucky1]

Nope...just used to dealing with BC's too-left-leaning local governments (AAAARGH!)
But that's mostly synonymous with Canada...

Here's a good article on fuel independence/fuel security:
http://fuelfix.com/blog/2012/12/13/ener ... -the-outs/

Barb

[lucky1]

didn't mean communism in a negative light,

Well, folks, I was born in a communist country...East Germany.
And you gotta have been born in that environment/be there/live there to see how dreams cannot come true.
But my Dad's dream came true with his family's escape.

Even if you scrimped and saved, you couldn't buy your child an orange.
There were no oranges in East Germany...ever.
No butter either, except one-quarter pound maybe every two weeks, and only in limited supply even that day.
You had to line up.
The first thing my Dad did when we made it out to West Germany was he bought an orange.
Mom said he was mad when I wouldn't eat it...I was just a little kid.

I cheered loudly when the Wall was torn down...from the comfort of my den in front of the TV (none of which I would've been able to "strive for" if my parents hadn't taken that risk and left. But Communist citizens worked hard; they just never got anywhere from their efforts.

My late Dad taught me lots in our new home in Canada.
To always keep an eye out for what government wants from you.
And to NEVER ask government for anything.

Anybody ever heard of Maurice Strong? This is a 4 year old article:
" Maurice Strong, a Canadian living in China, wanted us to feel very guilty for our standard of living in the West so he worked with the United Nations to organize the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro that laid the groundwork for the Kyoto Protocol of 1997.

Here are Strong’s words from before the summit:
“What if a small group of world leaders were to conclude that the principal risk to the Earth comes from the actions of rich countries? ...So, in order to save the planet, the group decides: Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”

Well, now that you know where I was born, you can probably imagine what I think of Mr. Maurice Strong...living in China, advocating THE COLLAPSE.

China can keep the S.O.B. for his treasonous statements.
In other words, he'd better not ever move into the house next door to me...

I simply cannot fathom how that utter idiot named Maurice Strong is alive, and John Lennon is dead.

Barb

[hardyjim]

Was it George Carlin that had the routine about all the people that advocated peace and love?

Gandhi,Christ.Lennon etc,all murdered.

I totally agree with what Aaron said about possibly wanting to do your own thing.

And I would not have a problem with going back to "caveman days" whatever that means

The reality is that you just won't be able too,every person on the planet now has traces of pesticides and
poisons in their body and soon enough all the ground water,etc will be to loaded with chemicals won't be possible
to live off the land and go get fresh water from a stream.

At the rate we are burning through resources on this planet,I think people will be forced to work together
and not so someone else can be rich while others starve-one thing that is cool about Fresco's ideas is that,
he saw a time when machines are so efficient that everybody can have what ever they need.

The problem with people amassing wealth or there being folks who are rich is that it always comes at someone elses
expense....when you think about the bail out of Wall street\or whatever you want to call it-think about if that money was spread
out among the people or better yet,if all of it was invested in alternative energy,clean energy,you could easily solve the U.S. dependency
on foreign energy-but where did it go? Right back into the pockets of the wealthy,meanwhile the price of everything goes no where but up.

Think about this,if all of us had everything we need-ALL OF US -what would you want of your neighbors?

I think when people poo poo this idea,it is because there is still the thought that they will somehow be lacking something
and this stems from over lapping or current situation over one where everybody is truly equal.

It would seem competition is a driving evolutionary force but what has happened is,the people who have the most wealth
set all the policy for everyone else and more and more our rights are being taken away by the supposedly rich and powerful.

At least in Fresco's future world people can strive for things that last,things that matter because you have the time to pursue them.
I think that everyone will realize at some point that striving for more and more material goods is not sustainable as long as some hoard all the wealth.

[lucky1]

when you think about the bail out of Wall street\or whatever you want to call it-think about if that money was spread
out among the people...Right back into the pockets of the wealthy,meanwhile the price of everything goes no where but up.

Exactly.

Look at the way government is structured.
By the time "good" ideas get through all the layers, the wealthy always win because they either ARE government, or they have government's ear as corporate lobbyists. And then bureaucrats dilute stuff even further; doing as they're told by their bosses...the power-brokers.

Barb

[hardyjim]

And look at health care,that industry is actually more profitable if people stay sick.

Where is the carrot? Seriously,why would the medical industry try to find a cure
when they make trillions of $$$ by treating symptoms.....it's human nature but
somewhere along the way we lost our humanity and are told that everything is about money.

Look at Poulson(sp?),he actually said you can't ask what we do with the money(tax payer money)
and what was it,like 700 billion(that we know of)for the bailout-they have us held hostage so that
you can't even legally trade(barter)if you want to avoid the $ bill,in this country they can arrest you
for selling produce without a license.....they have not enforced it yet but if it ever takes away from
the big companies profits enough they will.

They have even brainwashed people into paying there taxes because it's patriotic!

And who does the government serve?-Not the people but- people think if you stay on the "right" side
that you will be part of the inner circle-no-now they want to censor the internet-the last place where there is "free"speech.

If you look also at all the proof about 911 it is a no brainer-clearly an inside job and yet people do not question it
because somehow they think it is easier not to as this will destroy the foundation of our society but there isn't one anyway,
just a corrupt system built on lies by thieves.


Lets assume there are such things as holy men-and women.....

I have a question for you guys if you would like to try to answer it-


if Jesus came today would you know him?



one last thing


This future prosperity for US...everyone....?

How will it be achieved?

my guess is by valuing what is truly worthy of our love and attention....

i won't say what it is because I don't want to be crucified...

[lucky1]

if it ever takes away from the big companies profits enough they will.

Already happened here in BC Canada.

But not because they didn't have a business license.
Under the guise of protecting the public's health, the B.C. government has shut down all the local, small family-owned "abattoirs" (a "clean" word for slaughterhouses) where people would go and buy meat versus the big stores. These small-time operators handled animals from the small ranches, including their own.
Customers would "custom cut"...take a steer or pig raised on your own acreage on land you have never sprayed with chemicals, and get it cut wrapped frozen for their own consumption. Or several families got together to fill their freezers with several locally purchased animals.
But they were shut down by the big boys who lobbied government for stupid reasons i.e. there wasn't a separate office/desk for the meat inspector to use, no handicap washrooms for the public, etc. etc.
All in the interests of "food safety", but guess where food contamination originated?
The big multinationals (big boys like Maple Leaf Foods) that had the e.coli contamination!
Now 5 or 6 years later, our local elected official says "we're trying to get the licenses to be re-issued, but it's a long process."
No sh*t, Sherlock!
Meanwhile hundreds of small ranchers have nowhere to take their animals for slaughter for local consumption.
So they've sold everything and stopped ranching.

health care,that industry is actually more profitable if people stay sick.

Apparently the unemployment rate in North America would go up by anywhere from 4 to 8 per cent if a total cancer cure were discovered today.
Big Pharma wants to keep people working.
It's been widely reported that THE trick to fighting the growth of any cancer cells (which we supposedly all have) is to get our diets off ACIDIC-forming foods that cause inflammation etc. and make our bodies more ALKALINE.

http://chienergy.co.uk/acidandalkaline.htm

Fully half of what we pay in income and property taxes now goes to wages and benefits for bureaucrats...you know...those people that keep us from getting at/to the ones pulling all the strings.
Wonder who the government/power-brokers will go after next when the "middle class" is totally broke from government/power-broker excesses.

...bound to offend people with this topic (I know), but the venting feels good.
'coz government doesn't listen.

Barb

[DesertZone]

Think about this,if all of us had everything we need-ALL OF US -what would you want of your neighbors?

The first thing that comes to mind mind is cattle. I guess people would do a lot of drugs, I need the struggle and the fight for more, I must be crazy.

The rich may have this great power over some, but They have no power over me, as long as I have freedom to vote and succeed, and in this country it possible, I'm glad the rich get richer when when I work it gives me a job and a means of supporting my family and that beats living off other peoples tax dollars. If I don't like the job, I can go somewhere else.

Don't get me wrong we need to support the few that can't take care of themselves.

[andym]

Barb.... don't eat Blueberries... they are very acidic in reaction in your body. I eat pummets of them and i'm well inflamed
I have to confess that I never read Al Gores "An inconvenient truth" but i just wonder what America would have been like under his Presidency?? Strong or weak??

BTW love your windmill Barb.... powerful enough to grind the wheat
On a serious note... do you sell the Electricity or is it just for home use?

[hardyjim]

Wonder who the government/power-brokers will go after next when the "middle class" is totally broke from government/power-broker excesses.

.
Barb

I think Jim Morrison once said-in "The soft parade"

"When all else fails,we can whip the horses eyes"

[hardyjim]

Barb

I once tried the Alkaline diet,I never felt better in my life but as I tightened the reigns,
I slipped back into my old habits....kind of symbolic for this whole culture when you think about it.

Any major undertaking like this needs to be done slowly if it is to be accepted,even our own
bodies will sabotage such efforts,we create little creatures(candida)that live off the waste produced
by toxicity from an acidic diet,this candida eats the waste produced by this imbalance and creates more waste.


Most people.upon trying a healthy(truly healthy diet)get sick first- as the body releases the toxicity back into the system
to a healthy immune system that is now able to fight the imbalance instead of storing it away like bad karma.

We have a massive debt to pay back to this planet-but not yet,not yet as we are not through with it yet.....

[lucky1]

Hi Andy,

sell the Electricity or is it just for home use

It goes straight to the grid on a "net metering agreement", which basically means I keep paying my hydro bills as they come in.
At the end of the year, if (and that's a big IF) I sent them more than I used, I get a cheque.
I might as well cut down the mailbox...
We decided to NOT use it here...battery technology hasn't kept up and until it does, I'd need a room full of batteries.
Andy, I thought blueberries were GOOD for us (darn, I love them!)
Maybe I'm aflame...er....a...inflamed too.

Jim, glad to hear you've done that alkaline thingy.
It's hard to change habits that have accumulated over years and years (and eons in my case)
I knew a fellow who jogged every day...serious jogging...we're talking 5 or 6 miles every day.
He looked like a bag of crap, much older than his years.
So I happily crossed jogging off my list...
...and I'd never give up my fav bubbly, even if glowed green.

Think about this,if all of us had everything we need-ALL OF US -what would you want of your neighbors?

Why would I want ANYTHING from a neighbor?
OK...maybe a higher fence (one has been "difficult").
But my other neighbor makes up for him.

Barb

[CTPalm]

“Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.” – Benjamin Franklin

[canadianplant]

Its interesting..... Hunter and gatherers lived longer then us (until very recent), were in better health, and worked less then 20 hours a week.

Our diet, as far as evolution goes, is supposed to be a variety of food, whole foods. Until the spread of farming, most human skeletons found all had different "scars' on the teeth, indicating that we are very different foods depending on local resources. When the climate changed, our food sources changed. We were basically forged to farm. Our bodies shrunk from 6 foot 2 in huning and gathering societies, to roughly 5 foot 4 (for males). Our diet was more strict and dependent on what we could farm, as we gathered less and less.

The main problem for health these days (and happiness ultimately), is basically poor diet, lack of excersise, and the abundance of polluted air and water. Humans have bitten the hand that feeds us (literally). Pretty much all our food is grown in poor soil, and the general same around north america. People are very reluctant to try new foods, and even if we do, our bodies crap out because we arent used to it. The same goes with WHOLE foods. Processing breaks down the product, preservatives make shelf life longer, and chemicals like MSG make them taste better.

In terms of all around happiness/prosparity, a change in diet could work wonders, but I think changing our mindset to a more neighborhood friendly society that our species have always utilized. Communities used to be a place to teach, learn, and let your kids play safe. Strong neighbors create safer neighborhoods, and close friendships for children. It enables you to pool resources and man power, and in terms of sustainability, you can grow much more food for the neighborhood, if most of the area grows some of its own food to share.


@Jim

Keeping in line with the doors quotes, this ones from "when the musics over"

" we want the world, and we want it....... NOW"

[DesertZone]

Think about this,if all of us had everything we need-ALL OF US -what would you want of your neighbors?

The first thing that comes to mind mind is cattle. I guess people would do a lot of drugs, I need the struggle and the fight for more, I must be crazy.

I think I need to rephrase my sentence. I don't want cattle from my nieghbors, what I mean is, if people had everything they wanted without working for it they would probably act like teenagers. Some of the worst crimes come from spoiled younge adults that are bored.
Or we would wonder around like cattle being herded as we are told what to do. I think we would lose our creative thought process if we had instant gratification, like some of our chirlden are doing.

But I can also see it as you maybe thinking, if there is no people in need, then crime would drop, bills would be paid, and people could live happier lives. So very important our country and other countries stay properous.

[hardyjim]

I think this is the only forum where this stuff has been discussed in a friendly manner-

Cheers to you guys!

[lucky1]

neighborhood friendly society

Not long ago, I thumbed through an architecture magazine that addressed that very point.
And how friendly society was previously.

The proof was homes...two homes were photographed from the road.

A lovely older home, chock full of "character", had a wrap-around FRONT porch with chairs so people could sit and watch their neighborhood activity.

The other photo was a new home, with a three-car garage jutting out front. No "important" windows facing the street other than the ubiquitous living room window--and we all know how seldom we use a living room if we have a family room in the house (we use our LR only at Christmas!)

Quite the impact, those two pics, of how society has changed.

I think this is the only forum where this stuff has been discussed in a friendly manner-

That was nice, Jim!

Because our love of plants connects us...deeply!

Okay...I'm off to go clean my LR for Christmas!

Barb

[canadianplant]

I think this is the only forum where this stuff has been discussed in a friendly manner-

Cheers to you guys!

That was nice, Jim!

Because our love of plants connects us...deeply!

And Jim will cut off the plant porn

Cheers as well

[DesertZone]

And Jim will cut off the plant porn

Cheers as well

Gotta be nice to Jim, or this spring he wont share the good pics.

[hardyjim]

If there are any left after this storm-they are mentioning gravity waves again with the potential for 60mph+ wind gusts-
my Washy is in a spot between 2 houses where the air seems to get channeled and speed up-could be a rough day tomorrow!

[DesertZone]

Jim, I hope the storm is not to hard on your plants.

[hardyjim]

I have the stuff secured-or at least I think I do....find out tomorrow

[lucky1]

Not much sleep tonight, I bet, listening at the window.

[DesertZone]

A lovely older home, chock full of "character", had a wrap-around FRONT porch with chairs so people could sit and watch their neighborhood activity.

The other photo was a new home, with a three-car garage jutting out front. No "important" windows facing the street other than the ubiquitous living room window--and we all know how seldom we use a living room if we have a family room in the house (we use our LR only at Christmas!)

Barb

I heard from an old timer a long time ago said what was wrong with the nieghborhoods is no front porches! No one to watch the children and no nieghbors to visit with.

[lucky1]

Exactly Aaron.
Smart oldtimer, huh?

"no front porches" leads to neighbors not ever knowing one another.
Sad really.

Barb