Seeds vs plants

[canadianplant]

IT has been friustrating trying to find a good variation of plants in my area, let alone the country. I havnt exasburated all options yet, but it still is looking like slim pickings for decent palms, banana, ginger or really anything differet from the norm. This has led me to think for a while, whether it is worth it trying to find started plants, or start the more difficult to find plants from seed. This is how im thinking:

Started plants:

It is frustrating here, becasue there are no larger cities within a 8 or 12 hour drive to pick things up ( without going over the border, which opens up a whole other can of woms). For mail order selections, ive only really been able to find th ebread n butter plants general perennials/shrubs/annuals, Musa basjoo, and trachycarpus fortunei, yucca filamentosa/glauca (sp). The only way that i can find to get decent plants is to ge them shipped here from the states, which means id have to pay for a photosanitary cert, which an take weeks, and the EPA would have to inspect the plants before they are shipped. The only way around this, is if i get them from people, like you and me, and have them send them up here, labels as something other then plants. This can cause some bad crap if we get caught, which i wouldnt ask anyone to do.

seeds:
THis makes things a bit easier as far as variation of plants i can get. As far as I know there are no seed restrctions to canada, therefore i can get basicly what ever i can find. I can even order some plant seeds, that may or maynot have been in the ountry before....... ( cont next post)

[canadianplant]

This is good, becasue it makes it easier to get what i want. The main problem for me is room. I dont have many windows available ( tons of houseplants), so id have to make a small "gorw op" in the basement. The other thing is time. Some plants wont be reado to go out in the garden for 2 or 3 years iin soem cases. Not that i dont have the patience, i may or may not have room. The other hard part is getting them shipped early enough, that i can get them really growing before last frost. ID have to get them in the next weeksm or march or next year.

So really, im not sure what i should do. Mabey a bit of both? Most if not all of you have way more experience with these types of plants, and situations them me ( ive ordered say, 20 pack of palm seeds, and mabey had 5 or 6 plants all together germinate..... then again ididnt really try). What would you all suggest? Or what experience do you guys ( and gals of course:P) have with germinating seeds, and or ordering started plants? In your opinions, what would you say is the better way to go??

[BILL MA]

If you could start off with at least seedlings I think you'll be better off. I wish I had more time because I would mail you some sabal Lou. and etonias. I'm so pressed for time right now it crazy luckily the weather has be kind to me here so far, everything is still outside. I'll pm you when I get a better handle on things and see if your weather is still ok for shipping.

For inside I would look for some grow lights on craigs list, there's some good deals out there I just got 2 400 dollar lights plus 4 bulbs for 100 bucks last week.

Bill

[hardyjim]

While your trying to figure out what to do,get some seeds and start growing,
this way you won't have to wait as long when you make up your mind


Sooner the better really,you may even be able to ship to people up there and make your money back plus.

I have way to many seedlings this winter to bring in for the amount of windows,I am going with some
supplemental grow lights(in the corner) next to my window to light up the dark spots and give me some extra space.

[Paul Ont]

Canadian, Don't feel alone in this. When I first began this hobby (fresh out of HS) there was 1 source for 'tropicalesque' plants in Canada, and it was waaaaay out on the west coast. So, I decided that I would grow most of my plants from seed. The situation has since changed and we can get, basically, whatever we want to grow as plants (some of the rarer bamboos etc. are still sketchy since they generally have to come from Europe due to the USAs archaic bamboo rules)... Anyway, I converted a corner of the basement into a 'grow-op' type set up. I buy light fixtures when they're on sale (i.e. less than 12 bucks), and am sure to get the el-cheapo grow lights (usually something like $4 a bulb). I am referring to the 'shop' type lights here (long fluorescent tubes).

Here are the problems I've encountered:

1) Timers don't generally have a ground, which is a pain for automating day length. Make sure that there is that third prong on any timer you buy!
2) The lights don't go on sale very often, get them when you can!
3) Sometimes the grow lights will burn out very quickly. Brand does not seem to matter. This can be very frustrating.
4) basements are COLD and most things don't grow well when the temp hovers around 15-18C (Trachycarpus is an exception).
5) Germination of seeds in these cold temps is also VERY slow. I've waited 7-8 months for Sabal seedlings to poke through. Better to get some seed-mats to speed germination (for many banana seeds these mats are required since they give the hot/cool that helps break dormancy).
6) You need to be wary of infestations of insects. Aphids are especially problematic on things like banana and Brugmansia.

Good luck!

[canadianplant]

Bill i hear ya.... my backs been out for 2 weeks.... i havnt touched anything outside for a month at least. The temps here are a bit weird this time of year. I woudlnt send much out in way of live plants right now. STuff that is dormant would be alright id assume. Personaly ii think it be better for both of us to discuss this in the spring.

I would love to start with seedlings too. I just dont wanna have to trouble all parties involved with a PS cert.

Good idea about cragslist. Here we use Kajiji same thing different pile. Good deal on the lights dude !

That was my mindset eric LOL. I only got mabey 2 weeks before it gets below freezing constantly at night, and would kill most warmer climate seeds. I was definetly going to get extra to give away, or send around the country. I usualy get my seeds from seedrack, TM seeds and RPS. Ill just have to worry aboyt the ones from RPS, theyll take the longest.

Great idea anout the lamp. I got some west windows beside dark corners.

As for germinating the palm seeds..... I have been thinking, and there is a method thats used to germinate reptile eggs that would work perfect. Ffill an aquarium with 1/3 full of water, and insert a containfder full of sand, thats water tight. Place an aquarium Heater ( they are VERY accurate at getting the temperature Within a degree or 2 of what you need. Seeing as palm seeds dont need light, you can put this anywhere. For bananas, you just throw on the aquarium light, with rpoper bu,bs inserted. You dont realy need to worry about humidity, casue theres water inside the aquarium.

[canadianplant]

Thanks paul.... i think we need an "AA" type thing for us stuck in canada....

A buddy told me about trying to use the fourescents. He said they work great, except for plants that demand super high amount sof light ( he said they didnt work for his cacti). BUt had awsoem success with veggies, and annuals. Like you say for most palms and bananas, cool temps is not what i want for germination. The best part, is in april, soem times march, my portch stays above freezing at night, and gets into the 20s during the day due to the sun. And some of it gets really good light.

I have a good timer, takes up a whole socket, but is ground on both plugs. Jus thave to dig it out.

Temps are the problem i guess. Most annuals or colder climate perennials will grow well in the basement for a while, but as u stated, most "tropicalesque" plants wont. I might have to invest in some seedmats.

As for pests, inside i only have to worry about spidermites 90% of the time. My basjoo may have aphids, but i spray all my plants bi weekly ( some weekly like my ficus religiosa, always gets spidermitses indoors) with a mild dish soap solution ( a very small drop in a 2.5 pint pressure mister) I try to mist my plants with water everyday as well.

[TerdalFarm]

CP,
both!
starting from seeds is fun. I also use lights in winter. Mine are all still outside (I figure a little cold can't hurt!) but they'll be inside soon.
As for container palms I too cannot find them locally except when a store makes a mistake and brings us palms intended for Texas!
My solution is road trips. I get down to Texas about once a year for a variety of reasons (=horse shows).
So, can you take a driving vacation down south (say, North Carolina) and bring home palms?
--Erik

[canadianplant]

I would love that cept i dont have alisence myself (i know people who would be up for it). You need a passport now too to cross the border. Also, they hold plants from 2 weeks to 2 months when you try to cross the border, unless you hae a photosanitary cert. ( as far as i know, the EPA has to inspect th eplants either at the nursury, or the border before i can get any certification) Huge pain in the ass. My best bet would be to drive to toronto ( 12 hours) or to vancouver ( 2 days one way). As far as i know, vancouver would have the best chance of having anything worth wild.

[TerdalFarm]

Bummer.
Some US states require phyto. but not OK so I'm good, incl. for incoming shipments of mail-order palms.
Long-term, I say grow a bunch of palms from seed and go into business selling them a decade from now.

[canadianplant]

MY grandma tried to bring some plants back from minnisota ( im less then a 4 hour drive to duluth), she got em taken away at the border, and never seen them again. She tried once again, but by the tme she could pick them up, they were dead. Oddly enough she can bring fish accross the border with no problems what so ever ( odd how i can bring things over that wont survive naturaly here, yet, you can bring fish that can survive in the lake )

I could sell seedlings as you suggested as well. Much cheaper to send through the mail and i dont have to wait as long. I would want to get some banana and mabey some ginger. I hve a better chance of selling things localy, if your able to dig em up for the winter. My alocasia odora put out 3 new plants, so i can separate those. Also, I have 2 plants of Colocasia Fallax. ITs a smller form, but with in 2 years itll create a large colony if not dealt with. The thing is TINY, the size of a nickel, with leaves smaller then a pencil erasor.

I also have some rarer palms that would do well indoors. I ordered some Dypsis Lanceolata ( IVowowo palm) and dypsis arenarum ( sand palm). Both may only survive in cultivation. The Ivowowo seeds were almsot all germiated upon reciveing them. Their just starting to open up their first leaves. Nothing from the CHameadorea radicalis seeds, or my trachycarpus nanus seeds yet I got a feeling theyll sprout just before spring.

I had things outside till the end of september. THats pushing it enough here ( first frost is sept 15th here), the only thing outside is my coryline, which seems to be enjoying the light frosts, and my poor king sago, that hasnt pushed leaved out in years ( still alive)

[JackLord]

I think the others have advised you well. Construct a set up and start growing things like crazy. One thing I have found is that I may locate the best deal on whatever and I grab it. Sooner or later, an even better deal emerges. So I would think you will eventually find the plants you seek. But in the meantime, sprout them from seed.

I recommend the seed mats as well. Makes a big difference.

[TerdalFarm]

[quote="JackLord"]

I recommend the seed mats as well. Makes a big difference.[/quote]

I got one recently but haven't used it yet. This is a novice question, but how exactly do you use one? I don't want to fry things....

[canadianplant]

THe only type of heat matts in used to are the undertank heaters for reptiles. You place them ont he outside bottom of the cage/terarrium.

The thing is, if I use the method with the aquarium thermometer, i wont have to worry about heat mats at all.

Well, if the past few years say anything, were warming here, and drying up a bit. Which means people will be demanding different plants. Within 20- 50 years, tronto ontario is said to have the climate of southern kentucky.

I think this is my order - Needle palm
sabal palm
Trachycarpus Fortunei/nani tal
Hedychium coronarium var. coronarium
musa iterians ( burmese blue), yunannensis
musa helens hybrid

[TerdalFarm]

I have the reptile mat already--for the lizard.
The new one is said to be for seed germination, but requires and unspecified thermostat. Plus layers above and below.
I'll figure it out.
As for your list, well, I'm new to palms. From what I can see, around here, Sabal minor beats needle palm in winter hardiness.
But remember, S. minor is native here!
--Erik

[canadianplant]

Ive heard that about sabals eric, but then again, ive heard the opposite. Im assuming this is due to the fact more then temperature determines a plants survival. I have read that needles need to be kept dry during the winter ( or completely buried in snow), and also, I have heard tha tthe trick to needle palms is keeping them a bit wetter. Ive also read, that needles hardines peaks as they grow, so mabey a 5 year old plant has a better chance then say a 2 year old seedling.

What kind of lizard you got?

[BILL MA]

Eric,

When you hit 1000 posts you can't say your new to palms anymore K

That's a lot of posting to be considered a novice

Bill

[TerdalFarm]

I'm not to 1,000 posts yet!
I feel new, although I've been killing palms for a decade now. I have so much to learn. Like how to grow Washingtonia....

[JackLord]

I recommend the seed mats as well. Makes a big difference.

I got one recently but haven't used it yet. This is a novice question, but how exactly do you use one? I don't want to fry things....

Plug it in and lay your seed tray, pot, whatever on top of it. They give off heat like a low setting on an electric blanket. I would avoid metal for obvious reasons. And keep them dry for even more obvious reasons.

[canadianplant]

Eric, the best thing about this hobby, is that you will never learn everything, and so far in my little experience, i cant learn enough. As far as im concerened were all a novice

[Paul Ont]

Canadian- Look at this: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=3351

I bought 2 of those last year and hooked them in to a timer to speed germination (as I said the changes in temperature are nearly always required for germination of banana). I found that the temperature oscillations also helped speed along other seeds, including Sabal.

Rhapidophyllum is a pain in the ass to germinate. I think my best success was at a constant temp of ~32C, and even then I only got 40% germination.

Oh, and also, I think there are people who could be called 'expert' in terms of growing cold hardy plants in cold climates. I would put only a few people in that category (John from Co, Allen Hirsh, and maybe Mike from Niagara). You could also throw people working on cold tolerance in plants at the molecular level in there too, but their info isn't really applicable to the amateur enthusiast. I would put myself someone between the two levels in terms of 'gardening', but would be probably offend my colleagues and profession if I considered myself anything less than an expert in plants in general (esp. breeding system evolution).

[hardyjim]

[quote="Paul Ont"]Canadian- Look at this: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=3351

Oh, and also, I think there are people who could be called 'expert' in terms of growing cold hardy plants in cold climates. I would put only a few people in that category (John from Co, Allen Hirsh, and maybe Mike from Niagara).





WTF!

What about me?


Just kidding!

Speaking of John in Colorado,here are his numbers for Needle palm and S.minor
leaf hardiness,I did not include soil moisture figures for these 2 as I don't want to belabor the point.
Straight up leaf hardiness-
-22F/-30C (Rhapidophyllum hystrix)
-16F/-27C (Sabal minor)

One caveat to this is R.Hytrix is MUCH more prone to spear loss/pull.

[canadianplant]

That heat mat is pretty cool. I might have to get one just to try it out.

I learned the hard way about banana seeds. Ive been through quite a few LOL. Musella seems to not be too picky. Thats the only one ive been able to germinate so far.

In regards to the needle palm... From what ive read, they germinate easier if their stratified ( seeing as their from climates that get below zero during winter ( im referencing north of florida))). Im going to have to try it. Ill throw half in the fridge, and half not. Im still not to sure, on it becasue of how slow they grow. Same wit the Sabal Minor.

Colorado has a weird climate. Its a warmer version of Calgary Alberta. The dryer climate, as well as 5-10C temprature swings ( chinook winds can raise the temps 25C in just a few hours). Still, its interesting to see those numbers. -30C and - 27C..... Im assuming these temps were short lived?

[lucky1]

I bought a seed starting heat mat last year, worked great.


Seed flats/pots/trays...everything works.
You can cover the top with a large piece of plastic so that seeds don't dry out.
When germination occurs, just remove the plastic and mist (rather than drench) with water.

Just wish it was bigger.

Our friends just built a house with heated tile floors.
I walked in, complimented them on a beautiful decor, felt the warm tiles under my stocking feet, and said "Hey, great for starting seeds".
Homeowners weren't very impressed...not gardeners, I guess.

Barb

[Paul Ont]

Jesse- Yes the temps John uses as absolute lows are applicable to freezes of short duration (at least in terms to extreme cold) and with the caveat that they need to be drought stressed prior to the freeze event. He bases those numbers on sugar content of the leaves, but does not consider any 'anti-freeze' proteins that are also present in the leaves. I still can't beleive that no one has been engineering palms with increased expression of anti-freeze proteins (or, maybe someone is working on it...)

It should also be noted that those numbers are not applicable in a wetter (more humid) type climate. I don't know how much cold a properly acclimatized needle could take here before leaf damage would show. I suppose that it would be in the neighbourhood of -18C for a new palm, and anywhere from -22C (or colder) for a mature specimen. As Jim said needles are VERY prone to spear pull.

I do recommend a seed-heat mat. Those things are gold!

[canadianplant]

Hmmmm that makes sence to me. When their drought sressed im assuming that they would put their roots deeper, going beyond the frost line. I bet someone has tried to get a plant with more antifreeze. But (please correct me if im wrong), theres more to cold hardiness of a plant besides their "antifreeze". You know more about it then me, but to me the easiest way to acomplish that is to cross a hardier lant with a non hardier plant geneticly, and tissue culture them. OR just take a knownhardy specimin ( ie thebugarian trachys), and tissue culture it.

Now, wouldnt plants in a location thats borderline, or plants in an area that recives harsh, yet short freezes, eventualy produce seed that has more anti freeze properties? Wouldnt this be the plants natural survival technique to ensrure the survival of the species in a new location? I know cells have the ability to mutate and survive in areas in which they normaly wouldnt survive ( im refering to the lactose experiment where the scientist put cells that couldnt digest lactoce, in a lactoce only enviroment for food..... all of the cells mutates and got rid of the gene that made them unable to digest lactate, they all survived). This may be different in the case of a whole being, where all cells are part of the one life form. I was having a discussion in another forum about lants producing seeds that have a better chance of producing seeds that are better adapted to their enviroment. I was told this is wrong. If it does occur it can take 10 000 years for it to happen. But what about areas that seen drastic climate change in a short period of time? Say, the sahara. Scientist figure that it only took 100 years for the sahara to form. Yet there are plants there that survive ( the duom paln of egypt for example).

Sorry for ranting LOL. This stuff interests me to no end LOL

[Paul Ont]

Jesse- This is far too complex to post here...

The reason that drought stressed plants can handle more cold, is that they have to produce the proteins etc. to keep their leaves from loosing water (i.e. there is more 'stuff' in the cells and inter cellular spaces). This 'stuff' makes it so the leaves are protected form external stresses, including cold. There is also an additional benefit to John's climate that isn't often discussed, but has been noted and known is other species for a while. A sharp cold early in the winter will cause more damage than one later. Ok. But, if it stays cold, the plant also has to keep using energy to produce more of the 'stuff' to keep from getting damaged. After a while there is a peak of cold tolerance (say in December) and then there is a gradual lessening of the ability of the plant to react to cold (it gets less hardy). When the cold is short lived, it gives an immense advantage to the plant. What we have to deal with here is that when it gets below freezing, it can stay there for a month!

I'll try to find the graph of this and post it here.

[hardyjim]

Actually Paul

I find my palms are more cold hardy as the winter progresses,
they can take single digits 5-10(f)-12 to -15c by mid- late Jan.

Johns climate has 2 distinct advantages-

1.Mountain climate gradually see colder nights which gives the palms time
to harden off.

2.Johns climate is dry humidity/rainfall,for the most part
without over simplifying things to much.

So his palms have a nice warm summer to make all those wonderful carbs/sugar
and then he keeps them dry so the carb/water ratio is higher,so his palms have lower freeze thresholds.


This was why my palms were so damaged last year,no cold weather prior to the Arctic cold when it hit.

Oct-Nov avg 42-56(f) 5c to 14c with basically no freezing temps and quite wet..
December avg was 14 to 34(f) -10 to 1c my palms were destroyed.
Except the slower growing ones!

My palms are already drought stressed this year-

No doubt this year will be different,just over an inch of rain since mid Sept and many nights
by the time winter hits will no doubt have been in the 20s(f)0 to -6c or less!

[canadianplant]

This is what i was thinking about. I think one of the advantages that john has, is the fact he can have nights as low as say, -30C, but the following day, they can raise to 18C during the winter. Also if im not mistakin, colorado can also have temps that are very cool with a push of arctic air, dropping the nights to the single digits (celcius).

A while ago i remember reading up on this ( slow and steady drops in temps, vs a one or 2 day drop of temps). When i covered up my Fargesia rufa, I waited till mid december ( besides it being a mild year). The lows were -5C one night at -10C. Regardless it was exposed to frost quite a few nights before i multched the crap out of it. Im going to be doing the same thing this year, with all my bamboo.

In regards to the temps staying so low...... Protection like scottys would make a world of difference. Or like artictropical. the hard part is raising the temps to above freezing during the day.

[Paul Ont]

I find my palms are more cold hardy as the winter progresses,
they can take single digits 5-10(f)-12 to -15c by mid- late Jan.

Jim- I can't speak to palms from a scientific perspective, the info above comes from a paper on Rhododendron acclimatization and hardiness that I can't seem to find right now. It explains how hardiness in a few cultivars changes over the winter, it details exactly what I thought did NOT happen (i.e. a build to a peak hardiness in December followed by a slow loss of hardiness)! I hope someone does the same work on palms, it would be interesting to see how palms at different levels of drought respond in a controlled environment as the winter proceeds.

This is not about cold acclimatization, it's about physiology.

I do wonder how much the sugars (carb:water) vs. the proteins contribute to freeze tolerance.

An interesting topic for sure. I really don't know enough about the physiological changes at the molecular level, I don't know if anyone has published on this in palms.

We're I to try to make transgenic hardy palms, I think I would use Yucca glauca as the 'tool-shop' and try to work out it's cold tolerance pathways, then clone these into a palm... I know that others have suggested Spruce, but I think that another monocot would be much easier to use!

[Paul Ont]

From a student of Francko:

Title
Tissue Culture, Genetic Transformation and Cold Tolerance Mechanisms in Cold-Hardy Palms
Author
Lokuge, Meepa A
Degree
Doctor of Philosophy, Miami University, Botany, 2006.
Advisor
Kenneth G Wilson
Pages
148p.
Abstract
Palms are a familiar and characteristic feature of tropical landscapes. Some palm species survive temperatures below -6.70C (200 F) and few survive temperatures below -17.70C (00 F). Needle palm, cabbage palm and Chinese windmill palm are very resistant to cold under USDA Plant Hardiness Zone 6 conditions. The first part of this study was undertaken to develop a tissue culture system for the clonal propagation of cold-hardy palms with desired characters and with the ultimate goal of producing a system for genetic transformation. Windmill palm was regenerated from shoot apical meristem tissues via indirect organogenesis, giving rise to viable plants that fully acclimated to greenhouse conditions. With cabbage palm 1.5 µM dicamba was optimal for the induction of somatic embryogenesis from zygotic embryos. The second part of this study was aimed at developing a genetic transformation system for cold-hardy palms. Cabbage palm was selected because it’s widespread use throughout USDA Zone 8 and previous data suggest that with minor improvement in cold tolerance this palm could be grown in even colder areas. Cabbage palm zygotic embryos were successfully transformed with the marker genes gfp and gus using the two most common plant transformation methods, biolistic and Agrobacterium-mediated transformation. Results indicated that Agrobacterium -mediated transformation gave more promising results when compared with the biolistic method. Plants exhibit two strategies for surviving extremely cold weather: freeze avoidance and freeze tolerance. Both strategies involved supercooling mechanisms and other adaptations that have not been characterized in palms. The final part of this dissertation was aimed at studying these mechanisms using the most cold-hardy palm, the needle palm, as a model system. According to our results needle palm supercooling capacity is already pronounced even in warm-incubated foliage and does not change significantly after exposure to cold-acclimating conditions. To further investigate the molecular mechanisms underlying this cold tolerance, a proteomic approach was used to examine initial changes of the leaf proteome upon cold treatment. Protein identification was difficult due to non- availability of relevant genome sequences. Nevertheless, 2- dimensional gel electrophoresis suggested that significant changes in protein products occur in needle palm leaves when challenged with non-lethal cold.

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

so id have to make a small "grow op" in the basement

Canadianplant, I'm setting up a growing area that will take up about half of my computer room! I'll try to post pics as it progresses, but right now it's still in planning

[TerdalFarm]

Paul,
do you know of anyone doing scientific experiments on palm physiology as related to cold tolerance? All the serious research I find on palms is, predictably, on the commercially important ones--date palm, coconut, oil palm. Everything else I find is from us hobbyists. I find some neat molecular systematics work on occasion, but not physiology. This is not my academic speciality so I might be missing some obvious work you know of. --Erik

[Paul Ont]

Erik- You may try posting that on the Subtropical board. You may get a reply from Allen Hirsh and/or John B who have, or may know who has, done some controlled tests with T. fortunei (or Sabal, etc.)...

I can't find any published papers on the subject.

[canadianplant]

It is an interesting topic. Personaly id think the closer related the plant you tried, the better the odds of success.

If all plants come from a common ancistor, it would be safe to assume that plants ( mabey not palms), may have some genetic cold hardy "switch" in their genes that you could flick on?

[hardyjim]

may have some genetic cold hardy "switch" in their genes that you could flick on?

There is a guy here that has subjected Aloe Vera to colder and colder temps for 40 years.

If you know anything about Aloe Vera,you know they are not very cold hardy and
begin to suffer around 40f or less.

One thing about developing cold hardiness in palms is that you need to wait for the next generation of seeds,
you have to get the seeds,grow them and weed out the weaker ones every generation-this takes time.

40 years is a long time in some respects but not applied in this way...consider that Aloe Vera puts out
loads of shoots every year,you can build the parents and pups cold hardiness at the same time!

The guy I got them from says they have survived down to 12(f),-11c!

I don't know how many times mine could tolerate those temps but they have seen about 26-28(f)
about -2 to -3c with no damage.

I will find out this year how cold hardy this Aloe is,you can see part of it in the first pic of
the last picture post I did.

[canadianplant]

This is exactly what i was talking about. Except i was talking about bamboo. I just want sure if a plant that sets seeds slower, or faster would encourage better cold hardiness.

I think it may be on both accounts, biological/physiology, and accimitization. To me it makes sence if these go hand in hand ( then again im nto a scientist).

AS for the aloe:S thats pretty good. Arent there species that are hardy to zone 7 or 6? The one fromt he medditeranian would have to be able to be exposed to some frost in its natural enviroment correct?

[igor.glukhovtsev]

Most of the Aloe's are from Africa... From bloody tropical Africa. They would grow in the Italy or the French Mediterranean coast but they won't survive when the cold spells more than 2 or 3 days. They are too fleshy...

[hardyjim]

This is exactly what i was talking about. Except i was talking about bamboo. I just want sure if a plant that sets seeds slower, or faster would encourage better cold hardiness.

I think it may be on both accounts, biological/physiology, and accimitization. To me it makes sence if these go hand in hand ( then again im nto a scientist).

AS for the aloe:S thats pretty good. Arent there species that are hardy to zone 7 or 6? The one fromt he medditeranian would have to be able to be exposed to some frost in its natural enviroment correct?

There are some Aloes that are more hardy-much more than Aloe vera

Like Igor said,Africa/"tropical"-some sources say hardy to 45(f) only.
There are some down the street that
someone may be leaving out(I hope they do, they have also seen mid to upper 20s(f),they are brown now.
Mine still have the lovely color-you can kind of see it-here.

Upper left corner.

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

Check out Aloe ecklonis, Aloe cooperi, Aloe polyphylla, Aloe striatula, etc. The grass aloe types from southern Africa are generally the hardiest.