Protection Ideas??

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:02 pm

I tried to send a message to the St.Louis poster, and you have to get a MEMBERSHIP to post a message on webshots.
What a pain, won't do that.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:07 pm

I agree, Barb, there seem to be two different folks in the St. Louis area with big palms.
I think Jim used to live there, so maybe he can help. It is too big a city for me to just drive around looking for palm trees! --Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:11 pm

too big a city for me to just drive around looking for palm trees

Instead of "Murder Mystery", your trip could be a "palm mystery"

H A L L OOOOOOOOO, Jim, get out of the garden and onto your computer please

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:31 pm

I think the video Scotty posted is the one Paul was thinking of,was it not Paul?

I posted a message on the deltatropics (St.Louis site)asking if they could come on
and treat us to some info,so hopefully we will hear back.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:14 pm

Jim,
Thanks very much for doing that.

It'll be great to hear/see anything of their winter protection processes, and also summer pictures.

And then we can get back to Scotty's great topic

Barb

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:50 am

Hey- no the person I was thinking of uses scaffolding wrapped in plastic to cover 'his' palms. If I recall correctly this was because they had grown far too tall for any normal protection to work... I'll send a message on the NE board and see if I get a reply. Apparently the site does not have an archive so i can't just go back a few years to find the info!

Still, that video is instructive and interesting... What will we all do when the palms get to 30 or 40 feet tall?

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:19 am

Paul, now I know what you're talking about!!! I think it was posted on the big board last year at somepoint!! If you post it there I'm sure someone will remember!!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:37 am

Possibly the Washy in Oklahoma then Paul?

Was it a biggy?

I believe these cats just wrapped it in plastic up to but not closing the top
using.......a latter?

Or was it the guy in Iowa Paul?

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:39 am

Yeah, that Tulsa Washy fxb may be bigger. Reminds me that I promised Bill to get in touch with the guy. I'm busy at work this week, but hopefully by the end of the week I'll track him (John L.) down. PM me again if I forget, Bill. --Erik

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:53 pm

Thanks Erik!!!

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:32 am

Joe from Salt Spring left me this message! Too bad I've never seen the article, but I have seen pictures before...

"I haven't heard from Tom in many years. in 1989 Tom sent me a ton of photos of the palms he grew and how he went about protecting them each winter. He also grew much more than palms. Oleander bushes and big as elephants! Huge Hibiscus and citrus too, all outdoors in the ground. He had a major protection plan using scaffolding and thick 6 mm plastic. His tallest Washies were fully skirted near 50'ft tall Robustas. He also grew mature Syagrus, Phoenix c., Sabal palmettos, Butias, Chamaerops and Trachycarpus. His garden is unreal. It was also featured in HPI several years after I had received a letter from him. I would love to have an update on Tom's exotic garden because it was mind blowing to say the least. Cheers, Joe"

Wow. I can only assume that the plams no longer exist, too bad, it would have been something to see all those palms, including the 50 foot Washies, in St. Louis (USDA zone 6).

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:06 am

ARctictropical ( im sure youve seen his work around), is in zone 5, and grows butia, trachys and other palms. All he used, was woden boxes, with compact flourescent light bulbs ( 3 or 4 depending on how large they are). He said hes used this method for years, and the plants survived -30C ( hes in utah). he said the compact flourescents put out enough heat, and last longer then normal bulbs ( incandescent).

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:40 am

canadianplant wrote:ARctictropical ( im sure youve seen his work around), is in zone 5, and grows butia, trachys and other palms. All he used, was woden boxes, with compact flourescent light bulbs ( 3 or 4 depending on how large they are). He said hes used this method for years, and the plants survived -30C ( hes in utah). he said the compact flourescents put out enough heat, and last longer then normal bulbs ( incandescent).

Just to add on to this-Arctic is in zone 4 to the best of my knowledge and
his boxes are wooden framed with at least 1" styrofoam sides.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:06 pm

Paul
Thanks for checking into it.

I can only assume that the plams no longer exist, too bad, it would have been something to see all those palms, including the 50 foot Washies, in St. Louis

You're saying they've been cut down??????

Barb

BTW, what's HPI?

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:07 pm

Ah, thanks Jim......... its been a while since ive read the email he sent me. Still butia trachys and i thik washy too, in zone 4, and he also said he looses no leaves or really any problems.... THen again, sometime utah can be 10 or 15C in the middle of february, kind of like colorados weather.... or closer to home ( for me), Calgary

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Made a video today kind of describing what I am planning to do this winter for protection..
http://www.youtube.com/user/ScottyOn1#p ... WdANFJfSxI

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:09 pm

Man, has stuff ever grown this summer!
Nice crepe myrtle blossoms.

That huge Trachy bed will be a challenge for sure.

Yucca elata looks doubled in size, it's gorgeous. Tons of new leaves on that Washy, obviously loves its new spot.
And here comes the Bamboo creep....!!!!

I think the reason your two potted bananas out front didn't do much is because they're on the north side of your house, mostly shade.
They'd be a good planted test along the fence in back, versus throwing them out.

Maybe buy more wood

Thanks for the video Scotty.
Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Nice video, Scotty.
For those who haven't tried, the whole filming/walking/narrating thing is a lot harder than it looks.
As for protection, I am looking forward to the Aucuba. I love them, and lots of people around here grow them. However, mine always come out of Summer in terrible shape (heat, sun, wind....) and so I have never kept one alive over winter. I have one alive right now (out of two I planted in Spring) and it looks awful. I might as well just plant crotons.
I think your Trachy plans are good. I use the hot water jug trick and have been happy with it, at least when I am home to actually do it.
I have not tried oleander and so will be especially interested in how that works for you. Maybe I'll try that in 2011.
Crepe myrtle is easy down here, so I have no advice. Even this past winter they came back great with no protection.
Of the plants you have, I say give the most care to Butia. I love pindo palms, but as Barb will tell you, it is not easy. I fuss over mine. Chamearops is easy by comparison (yet not as rewarding). --Erik

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:09 am

Thanks guys! Yeah more wood for sure!! Not much of a builder though! The bananas in the front get about 6 hours of sun a day sunce they are further iff the house. Maybe it's because they are in pots?? Maybe I'll keep them indoors over the winter and try them in the ground next year.. The Aucba only gets about 3 hours of sun per day, I hear they don't like direct sun.. You're doing the same thing for your trachy as last year, right Barb??

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:52 am

I second Erik's comment about looking after Butia...after all, mine's DEAD, and it was indoors over winter!

Yup, Scotty, my Trachy will get the same palm hut as last year.
the carpenter already dropped by and asked when it's going up..."tad early...come back mid Oct"!
I'm too much of a chicken to wait until mid-December (as you planned Scotty).

The panels and clear roof spent all summer leaning against the front porch of my house...very stylish place to store it

H was not impressed!

Gotta finish painting it...before the OSB pieces crumble out of it.
Barb

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:15 am

Yeah, I'm not going to wait till mid December to protect the palms. I'll start putting up the boards mid November. The mags I'll wait till mid Dec depending on the weather..

hilashes · Post by **hilashes** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:14 pm

lucky1 wrote:Stumbled on some protection pics here:
http://palmae.free.fr/protection.htm

minimum protection for those needing only a bit.

Barb

Thanks for the link Barb, it had a method I'm already going to use. Will show it to hubby, as he's constructing the frame.

As we speak he's run to the local building supply shop to grab some scrap fiberglass roofing for me at a cheap cheap price! I called ahead of time and they want to get rid of it, so we're getting two 12 ft. sheets for $5 each! Perfect amount to cover each palm measuring 4ft. X 4ft.

WOO HOO!
oh and did I mention I'm excited?

Heidi

hilashes · Post by **hilashes** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:52 pm

ScottyON wrote:Made a video today kind of describing what I am planning to do this winter for protection..
http://www.youtube.com/user/ScottyOn1#p ... WdANFJfSxI

Love taking a walk through your beautiful garden Scotty, thanks for the video! It gives me ideas for my garden too. I sort of jumped the gun last year puting my overwinter plan into action as well, but this year I think I've got it. Each year is trial and error isn't it...we learn from one year to the next!

Heidi

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:34 pm

Thanks Heidi.. It's true, we learn so much each year and from all the other vets on this board who gladly share thei ideas with us!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:09 am

Well,you asked for feedback so,now your going to get it!

You probably know this already but here goes-what's up with the Trachy and the Mag so close together
in the front yard?
One of those needs to be moved.
I have the same problem in my yard,not enough sheltered spaces to grow everything I want,so
I put plants next to my palms that will die before I need to cover them-like Cannas.

I vote the Mag next spring(-:

As far as the buckets with leaves,I think you need more,skip the buckets-you will need to use wire fencing/
or the like with about 2' of leaves out from the center,try and find some burlap to wrap the plants in first and then
cover from moisture an inch or two out from that-you need a thick leaf pile to insulate without heat.
I covered my Needle this way the first year and it JUST made it and they are tough!
Not a bad idea to cover the leaf enclosure with plastic as well.

I don't know if you have bought your thermocubes yet but I would consider bumping up to 35-45F model,otherwise
your palms could stay below freezing for months,depending on if the enclosure warms in the sun or not-if it does the cube
will go off anyway.

Your Washy will not take repeated 20F temps all winter and will be mush by spring-take extra care to keep the Washys/Butias roots dry and
WELL mulched(6"+) during winter-I would also put some edging in a C shape around the Basjoo on the hill to keep it dry and also
use a foot of mulch for it and your other clump,then cover with plastic.

I would try and save the Washy leaves by wrapping them up(lift them and tie them up),they will provide some extra protection to the spear this way and if
they live will give it a nice jump in spring.
The Washys and Butia roots need special care as they are much more susceptible to cold damp soil then Trachys and Sabals.

What I learned last year is that it's better to protect early and uncover earlier than the other way around.

I hope you don't think I an being critical or bossy but I have tried a lot of different protection methods
and am finally getting a clue as to what works.....and why it doesn't!

Good luck Scotty,you've done an amazing job and have some beeeeeeeautiful palms!

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 am

Jim, from us novices, thanks.
As for Butia and Washy, I agree that they are more difficult than they get credit for.
Butia is worth the effort; I am not so sure about Washy.
I went big with needle palms, Sabal and Trachy this year in hopes they are less challenging. Even down here all will get protection.
I find Jim's idea of removing protection earlier appealing. Despite a horrid late December/early January, we were marginally zone 8 from mid-January on. Yet I protected palms through March. --Erik

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:42 pm

When your wife let's you plant a Washy,you will love them

I think pulling the protection off earlier would require spraying with wiltpruf
so they are not decimated by cold wind and inactive roots.

I should qualify the early removal plan as requiring a long enough/mild enough
stretch that soil @ 4" will warm to 50F.
3 days of sunny 50-60F weather usually does it by late Feb-here.

They should still be covered if significant rain and cold temps(below 20F) are expected.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:49 pm

I didn't actually want your honest opinion Jim, jeeezzzz.. Haha, just kidding!

Yeah I did plant the mag and Trachy close and for that reason I don't have many sheltered spots in the yard. You think move the Mag eh?? I have no where else sheltered to put it!

When it comes to the 20 on 30 off I hear what you're saying. For the most part we never stay below freezing for months. Sometimes a few weeks at a time beofre a thaw. Anyways, if the trachy in the front dies I won't have to move it, haha. There was a guy in Niagara that uses that method and has been successful. I might have to look into a 35-45. I just don't want to spend so much on electricity if I can with the space heater running in the palm hut, you know.. But I may see if I can change the order..

Thanks for the advice on the nanas! I'll do that for sure!

I'm thinking about getting the protection on the palms by the second weekend on November even if the weather is still nice. I will take your advice and not wait to long!

I appreciate your advice and know you have lots of experience so I will take what you have said seriously!!

Thanks again!!

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:35 pm

[quote="hardyjim"]When your wife let's you plant a Washy,you will love them

.[/quote]
She has good cause to not trust me with Washingtonia. Killing that large W. filifera a couple years ago was all my fault.

I'll be following your protection removal advice in late winter. I do monitor soil temperature.

My most challenging palms by taxa this winter will be the tiny Brahea armata and the three small Chameadorea radicalis. I am not sure if anyone else on this forum has tried those in the ground over winter. If so, please let me know.

That huge cabbage palm will also be a challenge. W paid for it and she is determined to keep it alive!
--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:20 pm

I've got two two-year old Brahea armata in pots.
While somewhat cold tolerant (but not when compared to Needles or Trachies), they apparently hate cold wet soil.

Mine are going into the warm house this winter, versus the cold barely-heated building.
I won't risk them to an enclosure in zone 5-something.

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:33 pm

Barb,
thanks.
I've grown this Brahea armata in a pot for four years. It was happy. Have yours done well?
I probably should have left well enough alone, but seeing as how I did not lose any palms this past winter I went ahead and planted the little guy last Spring. I regret that now, but I'm going to give it a try. It is ~2' from an electric outlet so heat tape will be easy, plus it will be covered. --Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:44 pm

Yes Erik mine are getting more blue with each hot summer.
The less I water them the better the color!

I'm reminded of the Vegas pics, where Blue Hesper palms are out front of the big lion sculpture.
I'd like to see them get that blue on the patio in pots (the only way I'm sure to get them thru a Cdn winter).
...just don't want the stress of worrying about stuff outdoors.

Good that yours is well situated for winter protection.
And a mild winter would we welcomed by all of us.
With your 40F soil temps under the snow, you'll have no trouble keeping it viable.

Our long-range predicts a very cold January and February...Yikes.

I look forward to your continuing Butia updates.
Fingers crossed on that baby!
Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:59 pm

Barb,
Those Vegas Brahea were astounding. I've never seen a big one "in the flesh" but hope to someday.
If I can keep this little one alive this winter, I'll shop for a larger one the next time I am in south Texas.
I like the blue. However, my new Sabal is almost as blue. That is one I really want to keep alive!
Speaking of blue, the old but small "avatar" Butia is quite blue in color this year. Very nice palm. Despite winter defoliation, it is bigger than it was this time last year.
The newer but larger Butia, well, I am not optimistic.

Over the past few days, it has declined. Slowly (compared to the shockingly fast pace when the disease struck) but the trend is in the wrong direction.
Back to this thread, W and I were designing increasingly large palm huts for the big Butia as it rocketed upward all Summer. I now doubt we'll have to do all that. However, I still want a heated palm hut over the Chammies. I like the thermocube idea as I want to keep them >20 oF (hopefully much above) all winter. They may be "root hardy" but I want to keep their great foliage.
--Erik

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:35 am

Above 20F is a good idea,I think the 20-30F Thermocube would work if you get
warmth from the sun in the protection,I just think the potential is there for it to stay to cold-
probably not in Oklahoma though.

Scotty that's a tough one with the Mag and Trachy-every year they survive you will get more attached to them both-
it ain't like you cant dig up the Trachy in a few years if they crowd each other,not a bad problem to have.

Eirk

I think Washys are one palm that needs a little protection later into the spring,
Bill and I kept ours covered longer than any other palms and I think that's why they did
so good.
We both had to uncover when temps of 115F+(inside enclosure) made it a little silly to keep them covered.

If you do try uncovering something earlier(weather permitting)make sure you keep it dry.

I uncovered one of my Waggies at the end of Feb(had to rip the protection out of the frozen ground!) and sprayed it with "freezepruf"[:x],
it was the first to start growing,I did shelter it when rain/cold was forecast.

The only reason I did this was because I wanted to plant a Princeps in it's spot

I should point out that it was one of only 3 Trachys to not have some kind of spear pull.
It is one of 2 Waggies that have shown themselves o be the toughest of all

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:35 am

Barb,
here is a photo of that little Brahea from this morning (sorry for bad cell phone photo quality):

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1V ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TI-up ... puddle.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ite">Palms 2010</a></td></tr></table>

So, you said they like standing in cold water, right?

The bricks are there to keep the dogs from digging it up. I suspect they know more than I do.

How about I just dig it up and re-pot it?

Jim,
I'm thinking of the 35 - 45 oF thermocube for the three Chammies.
Also, I planted a new Musa basjoo just to their West for shade. If I made the palm hut bigger, I could include it.
I don't know why that wouldn't work. If it did, the Chammies could get shade next Spring. Any thoughts?
--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:52 am

If I can keep this little one alive this winter,

Not "if"... but "when".

Thanks for the pic of the little Brahea, yes, the blue is evident.
Good idea with the bricks to keep dogs from digging, but did they also drag out a container to plant it into?

Please say that's not a layer of ice on that water

Sure looks like it. OMG!

If your "planting hollow" is too low, you can add three more inches of soil in a four-foot radius around the Brahea.
Just don't raise the height of soil on the trunk around the palm.
Then water should drain away (versus into it).

If you do dig it up, remember Brahea don't like ANY root disturbance (just like Bismarckia).
Take a lot of soil from all directions (two-person job, with two shovels), gently into a new container.
There was a UK site posting where the author said he "washed all the soil off brahea roots (because of an infection), and 10 years later it still hadn't grown a new leaf."

Another forum suggested NOT taking a container grown Butia out of its current pot, but just to plant it all into a new bigger pot.
Said the roots would "eventually come out the drain holes of it's 'home' pot."
Sheesh!

Hopefully applying Hydrogen Peroxide to the Butia every couple of days will help it.

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:34 pm

Jim,
I'm thinking of the 35 - 45 oF thermocube for the three Chammies.
Also, I planted a new Musa basjoo just to their West for shade. If I made the palm hut bigger, I could include it.
I don't know why that wouldn't work. If it did, the Chammies could get shade next Spring. Any thoughts?
--Erik[/quote]

Chammies? Shade?

I don't follow.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Sorry.
I meant Chamaedorea (radicalis in this case) which like shade.
Chamearops loves sun; my one got too much shade due to several Celosia that grew much larger than I anticipated.
Still grew great this Summer.
--Erik

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:05 am

Got it

PalmsNorth.com

Protection Ideas??

palm blues

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