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We had the coldest Winter here in Northern Kansas that we have had in at least 7-8 years.

I planted IN THE GROUND, a Sable Minor 3 Winters ago, on the South West side of the house. I figured this Winter would be the lastsince it was the coldest in recent memory.

However, I just checked and there is a new leaf starting. Unbelieveable.

If you are Zone person, give one of these a try on the South side of your home. Yes, they are SLOW and only give you one leaf a year, but it's still kina cool.

Interesting. How long-lasting is your cold? What was the low? How much damage did it have?

Thanks for the note!

I'll definitely shop for one. Since they grow slow, I'll try to buy one in a ~15 gallon pot.
I just bought three needle palms. I hope to have at least some palms I can give minimal protection to!
Did you cover your dwarf palmetto? Mulch it heavily?

They are tough little buggers, the one on my South side did very well despite making a mistake that Paul pointed out. I packed it with hay and put a wall o water around it. When I uncovered it the hay was soaked and kind of moldy. The two on my North West side had some leaf burn, they where much wetter though. Still they are pushing up new leaves already. A must have for sure! Needle palms too, nice pick up Erik.

Bill

No protection, what so ever. Just planted on the South side of house.

I have killed two trees (Washy & King Sego) by wrapping with plastic or leafs and both died from moisutre.

[quote="Kansas"]

I have killed two trees (Washy & King Sego) by wrapping with plastic or leafs and both died from moisutre.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip. I've also killed Washy the same way and so am leary of that method in our climate.
I will definitely go shopping for S. minor. Despite (because?) they are a native of our state, no nursery stocks them.
The needle palms were a surprise find at the local Home Depot. Very cheap.
--Erik

A local walmart by me has a load of hardy blue pots from costa farms. It was kind of surprising to see. They had med fans, needles, trachys, and minors. They where all rated zone 7 except the needle which was a 6.

Bill

By the way they where in 2.2 gallon pots for 18 bucks.

Hi Guys,

Quick questions:

1./ Do you think it is important from which location these Sabals came from? I was told that most of the ones I can get in Ontario, Canada are from Florida breeding sources and as such, have not yet been exposed to any cold yet, which just gives me the willies I love these plams, they are so beautiful when more mature... just it would be a pain to lose them due to a wrong source selection....
2./ Probably you already discussed this, but would you use a different approach in Sabal winter protection than with Rapi, or Trachy?

Thanks for your inputsin advance!

Rob

No question palms from cold areas and that have experienced cold are going to be hardier.


The issue is whether palms that are slowly introduced to it and have a chance to adjust
will end up being as hardy,potentially they should.
If a palm is taken down gradually and it's natural defenses are given time to kick in,
they should be able to adjust.
One caveat to this is that they more than likely will need to grow all new leaves that are adjusted to their "new"climate.

So,you may end up losing old the foliage anyway.

There is so much variability from plant to plant (say Trachys for instance)that it's very possible
that a southern grown Trachy could beat out a northern grown Trachy in their first winter.

One thing that's necessary is for both to gradually be brought into winter temps,
whether you live in S.Carolina or Minnesota a sudden cold snap can be the end.


I believe this was the problem with the damage to my palms this year.

Florida plants are surely not used to cold, but I believe they can do just fine depending on your protection. The fact of the matter is that 85% of the hardy palms come from Fla anyways. A healthy root system is most likely the most important anyways since you'll be protecting the fronds from cold anyways.

If I could offer one more piece of advice I'd say fertilize but not super heavy on palms under 15 gallons the first year. Bigger palms are already almost established if planted from large pots.

Bill

[quote="BILL MA"]A local walmart by me has a load of hardy blue pots from costa farms. It was kind of surprising to see. They had med fans, needles, trachys, and minors. They where all rated zone 7 except the needle which was a 6.

Bill[/quote]

That is the same scam the local HD had! They were also in blue pots.
My "favorite" feature was the large, prominent "cold hardy" stickers affixed to the sides of the med fans, needles, trachys AND Butia!
IMHO, med fans, trachys and Butia are NOT "cold hardy" on the zone 6/7 border and need winter protection.
I know nothing first-hand about needle palms. I'm hoping they really are "cold hardy." Let me know if you have advice.
The small needle pots (size you mentioned) were US$20 and the 7 gallon were US$40. They only had two of those, and the spear on one pulled as I tugged it gently so I left it and bought the other one.
Still looking for Sabal minor, and annoyed that nurseries in a state where they are a native plant don't sell them.
--Erik

Sabal minors are also commonly found here in S.C. from the coast up to 160 miles inland. However, try to find one in a nursery! Won't happen! I think the problem is that they are so slow growing that it is not economically feasable to grow them for market. Because they are not available, you don't see them used in home landscaping and thus, no demand. Compounding this is the fact that they are difficult to transplant at different stages of life. Small seedlings are "fairly" easy to move, but are more fragile than Sabal palmetto. Plants that are 3-6 years (first fan leaves) are almost impossible to transplant from the wild (many failures thru the years!). Sellable plants must be placed in pots as young seedlings and left there! Compounding the problem is the fact that more of it's growth initially is "below ground" making it difficult to contain in pots. Once the plant is mature (seed-bearing) they can be moved without risk of loss. I have at least 15 of the largest specimens I have seen anywhere and trust me, when people see them and can appreciate their landscaping potential, they want one!

Pennywise




Erik
Needles are VERY tough once established.
They can take a while to root in,I think in your climate they would do well
and may benefit from some afternoon sun protection.

The problem quite a few people have is they don't protect them enough the first few
year's in places where they need too,they get damaged(spear-pull/leaf damage)and the
road to recovery is long.
My advice would be to protect from extreme/early cold the first few years,
it can take a while to regrow damaged leaves but the new ones will be
well adjusted to their new climate/home.

gpenny wrote: I have at least 15 of the largest specimens I have seen anywhere and trust me, when people see them and can appreciate their landscaping potential, they want one!

Pics please.

Here's some from the front courtyard I took a few days ago.'ll try to post some from the back soon as I get a chance.
[/img]


[/img]

Sweet-
Those are nice!

gpenny,
those are huge. Thanks for posting.

I got an even better one for you today Erik. How about that huge blue tag being labeled as windmill palms actually being a sabal? Nice labeling right?
Good luck to all the people buying them with a one year warranty, I might buy some just to expose to no protection. Perfect control palms on the big stores dime.

As for the needles they are the real deal. Two out of my three came through with just a minor wrap job, No Heat! The one with spear pull was a weak one to start, at best it's going into a pot to see if it gets with the program. The other two are already growing strong, not bad for Fla plants. If I plant more I'll protect different next year. A dry hut with no mulch for Needle and minor should do the trick just fine. Plant them Erik and keep them dry for a year or two and you'll have long term palms no matter where there from.

Bill

Those are some real beauties you have there Pennie! How long have you been growing them?

I hope to be picking up some of my own in a week or two when I head to Fla.
I have several 45 Gallons on my list along with other huge specimens I will be selling here.

My puny sabals came through fine after serious protection malfunction, soaked hay? Duh! Try again, at least they survived. Smarter protection next time.
Much smarter for the new big boys.

Bill

Penny My Bad!

Jim,
I'll ask for needle palm winter protection advice on a new thread this autumn.
As is typical for me, I did NOT plant them in a good microclimate. They get morning shade and afternoon sun, and lots of wind.
Penny,
thanks for the info.! It helps me understand. A few years ago I asked the botanist who teaches our horticulture classes about dwarf palmetto and she was dismissive, saying S. minor was "not much of a palm." So, I assumed nurseries did not stock them for that reason.
From what you said, it seems that nurseries cannot reasonably make a profit on Sabal minor. The schemer in me wants to raise 100,000 dwarf palmettos in Mexico for a decade and then sell them in the U.S./Canada to make retirement money. I won't do it, but from what you wrote, that would be the only way to make money off them. Thanks again for the insight into the economics as well as the biology of S. minor.
--Erik

Erik: Ditto with what Jim said on the needle palm. I planted my first one in the ground last spring here, covered it with a leaf pile for the winter, and in January it was shooting a spear leaf up through the pile, and when I uncovered it in march, it was completely unscathed. Out of all the palms I've tried so far, the needle was the only one that seemed to go through the winter with no damage whatsoever, and even grew a bit over the winter.

Bill
I have been growing them for 30 years,however, most reached their maximum height (current) within 15-20 years. they continue to put out new fronds but overall height seems to stay the same. Girth may be increasing (if that makes sense!).

Erik
We've all had that dream! (Mexico,Costa R.). You can make money,just not very Fast! I do believe there is a market for smaller growing landscape palms in my area. Right now the only choices are needles and Med. fan palms. As you know both of those sucker and can outgrow locations next to foundations. The Sabal minors stay fairly compact.

Erik
I agree with Jova about leaf piles,probably all you will need there.

I think in the location they are planted they will need to be kept
watered in well,Needles are one palm that's kind of an exception to the
keep dry in winter plan.
You will probably not need to do anything in winter except(in the first few years)
keep the crowns dry when wet/cold threaten and protect during Arctic out breaks.

In a normal year you may only need to protect Jan-Feb

This means it is necessary to maintain the growing point of moisture in the winter?

I've watered my trachies every year over winter except the first. I use warm 85f water too. Any palms in huts next year other then washies and phoenix will get regular drinks at my place to keep from drying up from the sun.

Bill

I learn so much from you folks.
Just not where to buy large Sabal minor in a state where they are native.
Maybe I'll just go buy that huge Sabal palmetto from Florida....
--Erik

limoncik wrote:This means it is necessary to maintain the growing point of moisture in the winter?

Keeping water out during repeated freezing in some winter climates can be the
difference between spear pull and not.
Leaves of needle palms are pretty amazing when it comes to hardiness!

Maybe one of use should market a Palm awning for cool climates

BILL MA wrote:Maybe one of use should market a Palm awning for cool climates

How about a palm "offing"service when people start saying -
I don't know if I will keep it.

Is it alive? should I water it,etc,etc.etc.


Then someone just comes in a shoots the palm for them

Is that an offer?

Depends on if it is a one barrel or "both barrels" job!