Pushing the limits of cold hardiness..

[canadianplant]

I am looking to try some "on the edge gardening". Im in what is said to be zone 3-4, but Id say its zone 4 myself. With proper multching, i belive i can bring the zone up to 5, and mabey 6, with other measures.

Basicly, I would like suggestions, no matter how far fetched on what to try up here. If you ever wondered " i wonder how cold this can take?", or " I wonder how cold tolerant this actually is?", please let me know. Ill take any plant suggestions from, fruit trees, bamboo, palms, banana, ginger, decidious trees, pine, flowers, vines, ferns, anything. Im looking for mainly tropical looking plants, but ill take any suggestions.

I would more then likley be posting updates on the plants as the year goes by.

This is prompted by some information i recently read. It stated that the hardiness zones we use are made for trees basicaly. I would personaly like to know the limits of "tropical" gardening, and also the limits of certain species, with various types of wiinter protection.

The growing season is from mid may or beginning of june to about mid september or end of october. The ground doesnt freeze till about end of december. I belive I have stopped the ground from freezing around my fargesia by multching when the ground was still soft. Id most likely build wooden boxes and insulate the plants on top of multching. Im crafty that way lol.

So any suggestions, or help in anyway would be greatly appreciated!!!

[Paul Ont]

Let us know the city, area, general climate, we can get a better idea of your options when we know what the climate is like... Don't think that you can 'change' your zone. The only sense we have of being able to do that is microclimate. Protection is not zone changning, it is protection and doing this with a mind to your climate is important...

I'm in zone 5b/6a Toronto, but the garden is located in zone 4b/5a near Kingston. I've had luck wth palms, bamboo, fruit trees, BLE's, 'exotic' flowering trees, sourthern tree species, cacti, Yucca, etc. There any many here in similar climates, some are more willing to go to extremes of protection (e.g. 'palm houses') than others.

Welcome aboard.

[lucky1]

Hi Canadian plant, welcome aboard!

Agree with Paul's comments, and looking forward to your reply.

Assuming you're not in the middle of 2,000 acres all by yourself drive around and take pictures of plants that are doing well in your neighbourhood, especially those that you want to have. Zone and microclimate indicators: any peach/apricot trees? pear trees in your area? elevation? yard aspect (facing south? east?).

We all hate the USDA zone map, but it gives you a general idea of the ranges.
You can, with more experience and observation, narrow it down to your own locale.
Halfway down this page, there's some good general info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardiness_zone

Re fruit trees (we had an 1,100 apple tree orchard until 15 years ago), say, you'd like an apple tree in your yard.
Your comment:

The growing season is from mid may or beginning of june

a bit iffy as most apple tree blossoms emerge around end of April/early May in commercial growing areas. Frost at blossom time can wipe possibility of fruit year after year unless you select a location on the south or east side of your house, for example. And some apple tree varieties are hardier than others because of the selection of rootstock.

When it comes to tropicals like banana and palm trees, containers for the patio--which you can wheel into the garage or family room to overwinter--will provide you with material that's growing while you're figuring it all out.

Take some pictures, post 'em.
We love seeing pictures of yards and plants.
Barb

[canadianplant]

Im in Thunder Bay, the lake keeps some of the area warmer, its the wind u gotta protect. Most of the time when its -40 here, its only with the wind, its really -20C.

I have a Fargesia Rufa "Green Panda" in the yard this winter. Buried in about 2 feet wide and 2 feet deep in leaves, then plastic, then more leaves, then about 6 inches of snow on top, and about a foot snow around it. My grandma is growing wisteria here, for about 10 or 15 years, hasnt bloomed yet, but it comes back every year. Even after the nasty freezing rain that we got here 2 or 3 years ago. IF the fargesia survives, i know I have at least plants that are hardy, or close to hardy in zone 5.

So from what ive found, Fatisa Japonica is hardy to zone 5. There are reports of Yucca Gloriosa surviving zone 5 without protection. Some other yucca, and Agave species as well. A few more Fargesia species can survive zone 5 easy, and there are species that can take zone 4 without protection. Other bamboo from the ARUNDINARIA,PHYLLOSTACHYS,PSEUDOSASA and SEMIARUNDINARIA can survive temps from -23 to -32C without any protection, aside from snow. To my kowledge thats the low end of zone 5, and the igh end of zone 4. There are reports of some Hibiscus surviving in zone 4, as well as rhodendron, and azaelea. Even Musa Basjoo, and Sikkimensis have been reported to surviving zone 5 with little protection, or none in the right area. Rhapidophyllum hystrix isknown to handle zone 6 easily, and there have been successful reports of zone 5, with little protection.

If these work, then why not try a trachycarpus? or a sabal? This is all about luck, and placement for the most part. Knowledge is key as always. Hence why i came here

A lot of people really assume we freeze for 6 months of the year. We only see 2 or mabey 3 months of COLD weather. Once march or april hits, its rare for it to go below -15C during the night, and the days can reach 2 or 5 C. Our summers middle of may, beginning of june. Once june hits the temps usualy go really warm, really fast here. They cool off mid september, but we usualy dont get frost till the middle of october, sometimes we have a mild fall, with temps around -5 at night to around 5-10 during the day.

My city is one of the sunniest in canada, with about 2200 hours of sunshine a yr. Im at 48 degrees latitude ( hope i didnt mess that up lol, the horizontal one lol).

There are plenty of spots that are south facing, and have protection from the north wind, so im assuming their a micro climate of atleast zone 5. So with multching, I can definetly raise that evin with proper winter protection. Id refinetly would like to hav emy whole yard done up like that, but, it is alot of work. It would mostly be a mix. But how many people up here can bost they have bamboo growing in there yard? My chinese neghbor didnt belive me. Now she wants some ! lol. Im basinng my next actions on how my FArgesia survives this year. IF it dies back n comes back, well i have a shot at a few things. But if when I uncover it, and its green n healty, well thats a different story. I got a good feeling about some yucca. If i can keep em dry, and away from that damn wind ( which i can), i have a good feeling about them. As fer palms.... the best bet I have is the Hystrix ( needle palm), and even that is pushing it :S Ive read enough reports of Musa basjoo, and sikkimensis surviving zone 5 with not much protection, so if this bamboo survives, basjoo will be my next step. If the basjoo survives, I have a decent bench mark of that area

[lucky1]

Heck, you're 2 degrees Lat south of me! Got the impression you were way up north
Our northernmost member is Allen, in Edmonton. His feet are probably frozen to the steps, haven't heard from him in a while.

ts the wind u gotta protect

Exactly.
And knowing that, you'll wrap exposed Fargesia as it gets taller, when snow doesn't cover the mature plant.
Even wrap some heat tape around the burlap around it and then plastic wrap. Anything that works!

I've tried the hibiscus, rhodo and azalea "cold hardy" varieties, none made it because of lack of microclimate.
Fatsia didn't make it here, too hot in summer, needs shade at least half the day.

I recommend a Trachy and needle palm and Sabal first, in protected areas near south or east side of house, with lots of protection.
As the years go by, they can handle more and more cold (we think). But until plants have been in the ground for a number of years, they're quite susceptible.

It's not so much a freak drop in temp as the duration of cold.
Florida this year was a good example.
Lots of palms can handle one night, maybe two, of dipping into freezing temps, but unrelenting cold for a week or two finishes them off.

Same for us. Our Trachy can probably handle several days at -10C, even a week or two unprotected, but can it survive 2 months of howling winds when temp barely gets to -5C daytime? Probably not.

BTW, wisteria (if it's from seed), won't bloom for 10-15 years, whereas grafted wisteria usually blooms in 3-5 years.

Heard there are some pretty good palm nurseries in s.Ontario.
What's your fav palm?

Barb

[Paul Ont]

Ok. Thunder Bay. I didn't include T. bay in my Southern Ontario zone map... I mean, if I had I would have to include the intermediate areas as well. I don't know what the actual zone of the city is, USDA thinks it's zone 3, which is probably accurate. A warning, avoid using the Canadian map since the formula it uses tends (in the East) to overestimate the zone of an area. http://www.thegardenhelper.com/map/ushzmap.html

I'll go through your plant choices one by one and let you know my own experience in a warmer zone. I hope not to discourage you, AND you should know that your reliable snowfall is a HUGE bonus. We get big thaws mid-winter down here followed by severe cold (in the -20C range in K-town, generally warmer in T.O.) which is a worse-case scenario. Assuming you seldom see temps to -20C without snow you have an advantage...

Fargesia rufa might be the toughest of the bamboos, the only exception might be some of the northern clones of Arundinaria gigantea (Illinois, Ohio, etc) if you can find them... As far as I know they are now extremely rare in the wild and almost unknown in cultivation. I've been trying to find some northern clones in the nursery trade for quite a while (Brad S. of Needmore bamboo has some, but not for sale!). I have F. rufa, it's a little beat up right now but I expect it to survive. Low to date is c. -19C. It's a solid zone 5 plant, but doesn't have the real 'Bamboo' look to it. Fargesia nitida might be another one for you to try, it's also listed as hardy to zone 5 and CAN get to 8 feet+. Problem is that my young, new generation, plant isn't holding up as well as rufa here in 4b/5a. F. murieale isn't as hardy as people might tell you. I've lost them to cold here. Maybe I just had a bad clone? Anyway, I won't recommend it based on my experience.

In terms of tall bamboo your best bet are Phyllostachys. These are easily bent down to ground level where they can be covered by snow. When the stems/leaves are covered by snow people have overwintered P. aureosulcata in places as cold as zone 3 Quebec City. I have c. 5-7 species in the ground, none are leaf hardy below about -18C but look OK in spring if covered with snow over the winter. Established clumps, even here in T.O., will look ragged after a cold winter (cold= low down to -20C) but might maintain some foliage. Arundinaria would probably work for you as well, but it has a lack of vigour and many find it looks rather coarse. It would take much longer to establish than a Phyllostachys (and not look as nice).

I'll post more later when I have some time.

[Paul Ont]

"So from what ive found, Fatisa Japonica is hardy to zone 5. There are reports of Yucca Gloriosa surviving zone 5 without protection. Some other yucca, and Agave species as well. A few more Fargesia species can survive zone 5 easy, and there are species that can take zone 4 without protection. Other bamboo from the ARUNDINARIA,PHYLLOSTACHYS,PSEUDOSASA and SEMIARUNDINARIA can survive temps from -23 to -32C without any protection, aside from snow. To my kowledge thats the low end of zone 5, and the igh end of zone 4. There are reports of some Hibiscus surviving in zone 4, as well as rhodendron, and azaelea. Even Musa Basjoo, and Sikkimensis have been reported to surviving zone 5 with little protection, or none in the right area. Rhapidophyllum hystrix isknown to handle zone 6 easily, and there have been successful reports of zone 5, with little protection. "

Ok, a little more time now while I wait to begin my experiment....

Yucca gloriosa is not hardy in cold/Eastern Zone 5. I've tried 2 different plant and both have either perished first winter, or come back from the roots and then perished the following winter. I'm still trying, but it's not looking good. Y. recurvfolia 'might' have some forms hardy into zone 5... I'll let you know how they look in spring. I have 1 that was topkilled last year and has come back, and about 20-30 seedlings planted out. Yucca glauca would be hardy for you AND it can form a trunk. It might be worth trying a few Yucca elata from seed to see if you can get a hardy seedling. Otherwise you can get a glauca and cross it with the more southerly (less hardy) types to try to get some hardy 'good' trunking offspring. You might get away with Agave parryi (high altitude forms) and Agave utahensis ssp. kaibabensis, provided you place a bowl or plastic tub over them before the snow.

I've not had luck with hibiscus, even the 'native' types... Must be too dry for them!

I do have several Azaleas and Rhodo's (I also breed Rhodo's to try for big leaf, tree-types that can handle -30C). Nothing to report on that yet. Azaleas are OK, but Rhodo's are pretty money. If I were you I'd try some of the hardiest types first (brachycarpum ssp. tigerstedtii, maximum, some of the Finnish hybrids, Hellikki, etc.). There is a very rare palnt called 'Sandra Hinton' that was made by a fellow near Oshawa. it bloomed after -36C.

Ok, back to work. More later.

[canadianplant]

Thanks paul!

Well, id look up "yucca gloriosa nova scotia". There is a couple growing it in nova scotia. They said that they do not cover it. Even if its in a zone 6 micorclimate. We have very similar climates, except we get a bit colder then you, and definelty higher windchills. Ill definetly have to take a look at the suggestions you gave. Thanks again dude!

[canadianplant]

Thanks paul!

Well, id look up "yucca gloriosa nova scotia". There is a couple growing it in nova scotia. They said that they do not cover it. Even if its in a zone 6 micorclimate. We have very similar climates, except we get a bit colder then you, and definelty higher windchills. Ill definetly have to take a look at the suggestions you gave. Thanks again dude!

[Paul Ont]

More...

Musa basjoo isn't hardy in Ontario without mulch. In Niagara, Toronto, and Soutward basjoo CAN often overwinter with only a 6 inch layer of mulch. However, this method produces inferior plant which grow to perhaps between 3-6 feet even with the most extreme of fertilization schedules. One of the major problems up here is the low soil temps in spring which really slows growth considerably.

At my place I have had 0 luck overwintering basjoo with mulch up to 1 foot in thickness, even in the the most favorable microclimates. I have, however, developed a method that keeps some of the pseudostem alive. Step 1 is to lay 2L pop bottles by the stem. Step 2 is to cover these bottles with 1-2 feet of cedar of pine mulch. Step 3 is to wrap the pstem with 'mini-lights' (NOT LED). step 4 is to stake this area 2-3 feet from the stems and wrap it with Burlap, frost cloth (better) or thick plastic. Step 4 is to fill the enclosure 3 feet up the stem with deciduous leaves (Oak leaves are best, Maple worst). Then you can top it all off with a plastic hat, or leave it open. The leaves will crunch down a little over winter, but there will be SOME pstem left in the spring. This leads to a larger plant and, generally, overcomes our handicaps of cold soil and lower summer temps. I've not had luck with sikkimensis, but this species is easy enough to grow from seed (temperature undulations seem to be key to germination success). I am also trying M. velutina, this winter with the protection described above. I hope that it survives since it may be the only banana that I 'Might' be able to flower this far north (I've seen it and basjoo flower in Niagara region, but they are a true zone 6.)

I'll post some pics ina bit too.

Palms. Ugh. They are TOUGH to do this far north. Unfortunately people seem to think that needle palm and Sabal minor are bullet proof. This is simply not the case. Rhapidophyllum will often take zone 6 conditions in the south. This means that they take the winter with warm days (5-10C) and cold nights (-5 to 0C), with the occasional dip to -20C. In extremes SOME individuals have been known to take -20F and SURVIVE. Dr. John has a fine website explaining his trials and tribulations in zone 5b Colorado Springs... The problem for us is that these incredible reports come from areas much further south, with wamrer winter temps, a longer growing season, and no sustained cold. This far north I know of a handfull of needle palms growing in excellent microclimates (zone 7a micros) which are OK (still damamged most winters) mostly unprotected in the Niagara region. I'll psot pics of my own plant that is minimally protected in a cold zone 5. I have a Trachycarpus that looks just as good (you'll see what I mean soon). Again the problem is that the plant isn't as hardy in a shorter summer area (not enough heat to get good growth or adequate sugar stores to take the extreme cold). If I were you, I'd try a needle first with good protection, then think about branching out. If you're not patient, get a Trachy and see what you can do with it. They are a dime a dozen and grow like weeds on the West coast.

More later.

[Paul Ont]

A few pics showing my first needle palm, planted summer 2006. This is the result the following spring. Plant was protected with heavy mulch, frost cloth and snow. Near complete defoliation, but it didn't matter since the spear on the main stem pulled (this happens in 90% of newly planted specimens that get any damage this far north...). The 4th picture is a T. fortunei that was protected using a 'Rhodo-cone'. Complete disaster, probably the worst protection method I've ever tried to use... Some peopl have had luck with them, obviously I have not!

<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2850 ... hZme"><img src="http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/33254 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0928"></a>

<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2822 ... LOBD"><img src="http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/8363/ ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0926"></a>

<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2669 ... OUQB"><img src="http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/42737 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0927"></a>

<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2744 ... YEwL"><img src="http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/34815 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0924"></a>

[Paul Ont]

Phyllostachys aureoculata after last winter (low to -28C). I left one stem standing to see how it would fare in my 'average' winter (-28C is right on the 4b/5a border which is the same as the garden).

The stem left standing was topkilled. Those I bent down to the ground had minor leaf burn but were OK otherwise.

<a href="http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/29 ... Tuuo"><img src="http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/44246 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC01857"></a>

Summer recovery. The large culm is just shy of 20 feet. The 'mid-height' ones were bent to ground level over the winter! The large one was difficult to bend to ground... If you can overwinter the species it should take 3-5 years to get to this height, assuming that there is no or little winter damamge and good fertilization.
<a href="http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... nUkC"><img src="http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/42164 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00145"></a>

One I do recommed for you: Miscanthus gigantus (floridus). Here at c. 10 feet beginning of August. It will need 6-12 inches of mulch until established (and maybe thereafter too):
<a href="http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... YqJH"><img src="http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/5092/ ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00134"></a>

Different palms, Needle palm left and S. minor right. Both were protected in a warmed 'palm house' that saw a low temp of -15C (5f) one night (my mistake). You can see some winter damamge on the leaves of the needle. The Sabal lost both of its older leaves and this is what it looked like in August. Obvioulsy not the miracle plants they are claimed to be, but still, palms in zone 4b/5a...

<a href="http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... mXIb"><img src="http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/44113 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00146"></a>


basjoo recovers from pseudostem to get to 8 feet by August (could be taller, but I missed some fertilization opportunities...

<a href="http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... nqne"><img src="http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/45464 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00150"></a>


Cacti and succulents:

<a href="http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/pho ... MGCv"><img src="http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/38981 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00165"></a>

[Paul Ont]

P. aureosulcata emerging culm:
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2377 ... rwzF"><img src="http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/37997 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="rhodosbananasenduroottawa 071"></a>

Basjoo springs to life:
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2003 ... hgwZ"><img src="http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/44777 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC01915"></a>
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2060 ... lwEw"><img src="http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/42694 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="rhodosbananasenduroottawa 055"></a>

Lovely needle palm (from first pic) continues to hold on despite only frost cloth wrapping and mulch. It has NO ornamental value in this state!
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2769 ... kmEm"><img src="http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/43227 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC01917"></a>

Yucca recurvfolia topkilled, resprouts from roots:
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2988 ... jCmV"><img src="http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/42542 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="rhodosbananasenduroottawa 064"></a>


I thought I had one of my Acubua's too... Can't seem to find it. They had stem die back but were otherwise OK. Protection was frost cloth wrapping... Not bad for a zone 7 plant!

[Paul Ont]

Thanks paul!

Well, id look up "yucca gloriosa nova scotia". There is a couple growing it in nova scotia. They said that they do not cover it. Even if its in a zone 6 micorclimate. We have very similar climates, except we get a bit colder then you, and definelty higher windchills. Ill definetly have to take a look at the suggestions you gave. Thanks again dude!

Sorry for going overkill on this topic! I'm just interested in what you might be able to get away with up there.

Halifax proper is a zone 6a/b (Pennsula is certainly zone 6b). However, when I search for Yucca gloriosa Nova Scotia I get Dave's garden website and someone who has obviously confused what they are growing (99% sure it's Y. filamentosa, when I lived in NS this was the only species being grown) and the real Yucca gloriosa. Blomidon nursery in Wolfville NS does carry Y. gloriosa, but I don't know how this spp. would respond to all the moisture. It would probably be fine in the z. 7 areas of the South-west (near Yarmouth, or Digby) but might not be elsewhere. The lack of heat would also be an issue (they get less heat than us!)...

One more thing. Don't get carried away with microclimates. Your zone is your zone (calculate it by taking 20-30 years of extreme low winter minima and then taking the average) and microclimates may vary by .5-1 full zone, but won't be able to produce miracles... Now, if you have a spot under a heating vent...

Here is the last 10 years for T-Bay:
01-02: -33.3C
02-03: -28.1C
03-04: -33.4C
04-05: -34.9C
05-06: -40.5C
06-07: -29.7C
07-08: -32.9C
08-09: -34.1C
09-10: -33.1C
So far 10: -30C

Average = -33.3 (or, if this year counts, -33C), or -28f. This places you in zone 4a. But, we'd also need to include more data for this to be accurate (might be safer to say you're 3b). The other problem is that -40C temps can occur (-40C = -40f, zone 2b)... This can be a real challenge since surviving this temp requires specialized adaptations to cold. And, one moreconsideration is that the weather station is c. 1km from the lake, so the downtown could be .5-1 degree celsius warmer, depending on microclimate. So you could have some good 4b micros.

If you'd like more suggestion for plants worth a try, just let me know.

[canadianplant]

The temps are taken at the airport in THunder Bay. Which is at least 3 or 4 miles inland. My house is less then a mile to the lake. The lake usualy keeps the temps between 2-5 degrees warmer, the closer to the lake that is. When you get to where the airport is. IT is twice as windy, and noticlbly colder there. Were not as continenaly bound here like many of the states/provinces are. Even down there the lake plays a LARGE part in your climate.

Your input will greatly help paul. Our climates are almost exactly the same, although you are warmer. This winter was definetly interesting. Warmest January that ive seen in 22 years. BUT, I must ask, where you got that data? The temps in T bay havet dropped to -40 in decades. The coldest ive personaly ever seen here, was -35C, for less then an hour. Im VERY diligent about knowing the weather up here. LOL.

I can understand about the Mis- ID on the gloriosa. IT happens, im more adept to palms, and house plants. I did like the look of the pic on Davesgarden, they look MUCH like a Dreaceana Marginata.

The list you gave me is awsome! |Thanks alot, im always up to hearing suggestions. BUt i will say, I NEVER thought youd get a trachy to grow there. Grats on that! The bamboo will be my "Dither fish" ( fish geek term fer indicater fish lol). And ill go from there. Do you think that if the Fargesia survives that 2 basjoo will be a good start?

[Paul Ont]

Oh, I see that now, the airport is further inland than I thought when I first checked. The data that I posted was form the government data recordings from the airport weather station. I suppose it is possible that the town did not get below -40C during that freeze... I don't think there is a downtown weather station though... Too bad, it would be good to see how the airport lows compare. Luckily here in T.O. there is a downtown weather station to compare to Pearson airport. The airport is about 8km away from the lake shore, and can be as much as 1-1.5C warmer than the island airport. But, I should also mention that the island airport generally has open water beside it to moderate the temperatures. The urban heat-island effect is lessened when there is ice on the lake. Remember too, that even if the city hasn't hit -40C this decade, it did before, and it can again. I know that my area has hit -34/5 C before, and in extremes could again.

Like I said, don't put too much faith in microclimates, this can and does lead to disappointment.

Does anyone there grow Magnolia? I know that some can take serious cold, and there is a good collection in zone 4 Ottawa.
Just so we can compare:

Tbay:
J F M A M J J A S O N D
Maximum -8 -5 0 9 16 21 24 23 17 11 2 -5
Minimum -20 -19 -11 -2 2 7 11 10 5 0 -6 -16
Mean -14 -12 -5 3 9 14 18 16 11 5 -2 -10

Kingston:
J F M A M J J A S O N D
Maximum -3 -2 3 10 16 21 25 24 20 13 7 0
Minimum -12 -11 -5 1 7 12 16 15 11 5 0 -8
Mean -7 -6 0 6 12 17 20 20 15 9 3 -3

Toronto:
J F M A M J J A S O N D
Maximum 0 0 4 10 16 22 25 24 20 13 7 1
Minimum -7 -6 -2 3 8 13 16 16 13 7 2 -4
Mean -4 -3 1 6 12 17 21 20 16 10 5 -1

[hardyjim]

Paul is right on about the zone B.S.
You could have z8b low temps but if you stay there all winter every palm would die except the odd Trachy/Needle/Sabal-odd
meaning 1-3 live out of 10 at best.
The best advice for people in zones without severe cold (as in low,low temps) is to use a cover and heat it so you can create several
days during cold cloudy weather where the temp is above freezing,say 50-60(F) range.
Or you can shut them down in full protection(leaf cages,etc)and add a bulb or 2 to keep lethal freeze away.


Raising the temps during the day is a approach I learned looking at John in Colorados data.

I try to keep my palms in a range from 10-90(F)
those are maxes

15-20 and 50-60(F) lows,highs- is better!

[canadianplant]

Hey paul.. i can help you with tha tbamboo.. 100% canadian grown!! and shipped!
http://www.bambooworld.com/bamboo%20catalogue.htm

[lucky1]

hey, canadian plant, is that link YOUR company?
You've got a nursery?????

Hey, everybodeeeeee, we've died and gone to heaven!


Barb

[canadianplant]

Nooo lucky i wish.... but it has LOTs of great bamboo

[lucky1]

Oh, OK, coming back down now...

Barb

[Paul Ont]

Hey- Most (though not all) of my bamboo have come from that company. If you're going to order from them in future, get the biggest size you can afford. With the challenges of climate up here, the small ones will take years to get established. I've only received one dead plant from them, which, unfortunately, was Arundinaria gigantea. I've actually tried to order several clones online and none have arrived in good condition, maybe it doesn't travel well. I've never received any replacement. If you need suggestions, or have questions about their products don't hesitate to pm me. Oh, and their hardiness ratings should be interpreted as top-kill temps in most cases. Some of the temperatures they list, if unmulched plants are exposed to them (and no snow) will actually kill the bamboo, especially new plants, outright. FYI.

A good, and honest site, for bamboo growers is needmore bamboo. http://www.needmorebamboo.com/ . The nursery is in Indiana, so no good for plants for us, but is a valuable (HONEST) source.

A note on my Trachycarpus experiments. The plant I have was totally top-killed, spear pulled, and still (after 4 years) hasn't regained its former size. It is of no ornamental value. It's protected now with frost cloth and mulch. Despite some reports, in the east this species will be top killed at prolonged temps below about -15C, and young plants can be killed if exposed to that temp. A more in-depth experiment will begin this year. I'll be testing T. fortunei protection methods AND whether or not fungicide actually does anything (i.e. whether the palm will send up a new spear anyway without the need for fungicide). This will be akin to what Dr. Francko tried to do while at Miami Ohio.

[hardyjim]

Good luck with that.
I have never had a healthy* palm not come back but I have always treated with fungicide.

[Paul Ont]

Good luck with that.
I have never had a healthy* palm not come back but I have always treated with fungicide.

Like I said Jim, we all use fungicide to "save our palms", but what if the palms are actually saving themselves? I'd like to test that and make sure that the $ I've invested in fungicide has been well spent.

[canadianplant]

I read something years ago. Someone build a makeshift greenhouse around sensitive plants. They then had 2 or 3 steel drums ( like oil drums) filld with water, insulated, and painted back. They then set up mirrors or reflect the sunlight ( therefore making it oncentrated) and pointed it at the drums. Apperantly this created enough heat to keep them alive.

[Paul Ont]

I read something years ago. Someone build a makeshift greenhouse around sensitive plants. They then had 2 or 3 steel drums ( like oil drums) filld with water, insulated, and painted back. They then set up mirrors or reflect the sunlight ( therefore making it oncentrated) and pointed it at the drums. Apperantly this created enough heat to keep them alive.

I've heard of this method too. I don't think it would work well this far north (without additional heat sources) because when the average (not the low) temperature in our areas is well below freezing. So, overnight that amount of water could easily freeze and with the day time temps being below zero, even with the plastic and a sunny day, forget about a cloudy day, it would be difficult to melt or warm (much) the water. It could work with additional heating added to the water, and would actually probably be quite effective.

Remember the average temperature in Tbay in January is -14C, and there are 5 months when the average temp is below 0. I hope I don't sound too negative all the time, I just want you to be successful... And, like I said, your reliable snow is a major bonus... It was almost -18C here the other night and with no snow the freeze is getting deep into the ground. Ugh!

Here are a few useful links for some of the 'hard-to-find stuff':
http://www.nettlecreeknursery.com/ - Run by Mike and Marian Little, a couple of knowledgeable plant people.
http://www.rhodolandnursery.com/ - Run by Jack and Jackie Looye. Not sure if they mail-order or not. Jack has an encyclopedic knowledge of Rhodo's and could probably give you some suggestions for plants that may survive in Tbay... And they may have R. 'Sandra Hinton' which I would recommend you try.
http://www.colesflorist.ca/hardy.php - Cole's, a Canadian source for hardy palms, etc. Tony Post is the guy to talk to there. He's been instrumental in bringing hardy palms to Canada, particularly to Ontario.
Tony's Blog: http://niagaratropicals.blogspot.com/ -Really let's you know how incredible the microclimate in Niagara is... I mean, Spanish Moss in Ontario? For 5 years? Unprotected... Wow.
Hortico- http://www.hortico.com/ - They carry a lot of different plants. I've ordered from them before. Decent plants, nothing special. They do have Gunnera for a good price...

[canadianplant]

NO your not being negative.... i want realistc feedback........

THanks for the suggestions.... THe great thing is...... we tend to get lots of sun in the winter... so if the plants are under plastic... they usualy should get to 0C or above during the day. ( theoretical here). And from what ive read.... as long as there is a BIG rebound in temps..... that can make all the difference ( which is why i belive youve had so much success)

THanks for the input..

[lucky1]

lots of sun in the winter... so if the plants are under plastic.

Temps can soar under plastic, but I'm sure someone already said that here.
Barb

[canadianplant]

Alright ladies and gents.... here is an early list of this that i have, or am thinking about planting this year:

Well, I got some things so far..... I got a feeling of an early spring... Thee are all seeds :

Castor Bean - I really like this plant, but im a bit leary, cause of how toxic it is, and I have a dog here once in a while.... not to mention crows, ravens, and squirrels

Morning GLory - For flowers I actualy like these. Strong fast growing vines......
Lupin - perennial, tropical looking folliage, big flower tops to abour 36 inches
Clematis "radar Love" - Clematis is hardy here, nice fast growing vine.....
Passiflora Cearulea - Hardy to zone 5 or 6. Fast growing, huge flowers, gonna keep one inside and a few out to try...
Pink Pampas Grass - hardy to zone 5 or 6. Gets 7 - 12 feet tall.....
Strawberry "patio temptation" - Theyre strawberries..... nuff said
Sunflower - classic.......
Colocasia (taro root) - Got it from the gorcery store...... Gotta try it...... known as elephant ear
Zingzibar officiinal - Common cooking ginger...... Not very showy leaves, but clumped realy add a tropical vibe......
Fargesia Rufa "green panda" - My original bamboo.... im going to be uncoverit it within th enext week, and put up a little "greenhouse" for it...... wish me luck..


Now as far as other plants go...... I am going to be ordering some bamboo..... here is the list of possibilities.......


Arundinaria gigantea ‘Macon’
Fargesia murielae
Fargesia scabrida
Hibanobambusa tranquillans shiroshima
Phyllostachys aureosulcata
Phyllostachys bissetii

Phyllostachys nigra ‘Hale’ (Hardy Black)
Phyllostachys nuda
Semiarundinaria fastuosa (Narihira Bamboo or Japanese Palm Bamboo)


Othere:


Musa 'Basjoo'

palm:
Sabal minor 'McCurtain' - said to be hardy to -25F
Rhapidophyllum Hystrix - probably the hardiest palm int he world... apperantly the trick is moisture......



Yucca:
Yucca rostrata

Others:
Hibiscus moscheutos
Canna Musafolia - dig up oand pot during winter
Gingo biliba
Wisteria - steal some of of my grandma..... muhahah try to make a tree....
Well thats my list so far........ all of the seeds are planted and purhased... all of the others below are possibilities

[lucky1]

Wow, that's one incredible list.
You'll be changing your avatar name to Gung Ho...

R.hystrix...the trick is NO moisture, but I'm sure you know that.

Wouldn't worry about the Castor Bean, there are many many plants that--if eaten--are poisonous.
Puppies need to be watched carefully as they chew on everything, give him an old shoe
Older dogs are usually pretty smart.

Our place has wild white-flowering morning glory that somehow comes up in the lawns.
You can have all ours. They're brutal for self seeding.

Hope you post some pics, especially the Fargesia when you expose it.

Cuttings from Wisteria usually don't bloom for approx 15 years; grafted wisteria can bloom as early as 5 years.

Good luck with the germination.
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

That will be a spectacular garden!
I've grown a few of those...
Passiflora cearulea : this is the first winter so I'll have to let you know in a couple months if it came back. It did not "act" like I expected in late Fall. It kept growing and flowering as if winter was not on the way. I did not see any sign of "dormancy". The leaves stayed green after the first freeze and for a day I thought it was an evergreen. No, just a confused plant. The crispy leaves are all still on.
Zingiber officiale: I tried this one for the first time in a sheltered raised bed on the South side of the house. I sited it where it would get some afternoon shade, but no good. It was just too much sun and heat. I don't know if that will be a problem for you. I'll try again but in a container where I can adjust the microclimate easily.
Pampas grass: the ones I planted a few years ago promptly died. I replaced them with Miscanthus in the same spot which have done very well.
Colocasia: do very well. I used to lift them in the Fall and overwinter inside but in November 2008 decided not to bother and they came back very strong last Summer (2009). This winter has been much colder. Also, the chickens have recently uncovered the roots and are eating them. They are so tough I expect them to come back anyways. We'll see.
Bamboo: My golden bamboo (aurea) has done great in the previous couple of winters but is "crispy" now. Some culms are still green near the ground. Completely defoliated, though. I grew P. nigra previously and it seemed hardier, so I'll plant some this Spring. I'll have to drive ~100 miles in my truck to buy large specimens of the more exotic bamboos. Still doing research.
Musa basjoo: does great. Killed to the ground, but has always come back strong when the soil warms. We'll see after this winter, but I expect it to be fine again. Musella lasiocarpa also comes back down here. I have not been able to get it to flower, however.
Hibiscus moscheatus: one of mine died last winter after suffering terribly in Summer heat; the other did fine. I added two "Texas Star" Hibiscus. They loved the Summer heat. I'm hoping they come back this Summer from the ground.
Canna: I treat like Colocasia. I used to dig and store, but left them in the ground winter 2008/2009 and they did fine last Summer. We'll see if they made it this Winter. I did nothing for them at all.
Palms: I hope to buy large specimens of both those species this Spring. I want at least a few palms I don't have to worry about....

[canadianplant]

LOl thanks lucky

Thats good o know about the castor bean thanks alot

I had NO idea that morning glory were wild in canada... I thought they were celtral/south american!! And id gladly steal some if I were there lol

As for the wisteria. My grandma has had it for 10 or 15 years, and it hasnt flowered. BUT this winter was relitivly mild... I think it has a good chance this year... especialy after i "trim " it lol

Tendral Thanks for the input!!!!

I belive the ginger needs semi shade, and protection from afternoon sun. I have a fence that block most of southers sun, but still lets some sun get through. And if it reaches over 3 feet, it will get more..... The fence is a great place for the clematis as well.... And the Elephant ear, as its a low point in the ground.... so it tends to stay a bit more moist.....

Thats good to know about the pampas grass....... I have been reccomended the miscanthus... but havnt seen ANY seeds at all......

I always thought hibiscus likes heat :S..... LOL

As for my fargesia..... the way the snow is melting I HAVE to uncover it and get it ready to pop out some culms....... as its an early starter... mabey april or may here????


THanks again all

[canadianplant]

also tendral... show is an EXCELLENT insulator...... so if you got all that snow before it got cold.... most of you things especially the bamboo will be awsome......

[TerdalFarm]

The snow that fell Dec. 24 stayed around a couple of weeks which probably helped a lot.
We have not had snow on the ground since mid-January, but we have also not seen lower than the mid-teens since then, either.
In most winters, snow melts the same day it falls as our soil temps are "always" above freezing all winter.
This winter was the exception....

[canadianplant]

Im pretty confindent that everything should come up perfect. Mabey not as many canna..... although some are hardy to zone 6ish.....

We also had about 30CM of snow ( about a foot) fall on christmas here, but it was very very warm this winter.... with the exception of mabey 2 or 3 weeks...... and MAYBE a weeks worth of below -25C at night, mabey one or 2 nights it was -30C. This is quite mild for this winter. And becasue im fairly close to the shore.... im about 5C warmer then those temps...... so im flirtin with zone 5B.......... Needless to say id think the temps are about 1-5C above average here.... and this is north of you..... The eastern states all got more snow then most of central and eastern canada.... with the exception of the maritimes....... and the BC mountains.... where it s actualy been around 3-9C warmer then normal all winter.......

In vancouver... the cherry trees started to leaf up and get fowers a week or 2 ago.... around a month ahead of scedual... not to mention bulbs, and some banana, and bamboo there from whta ive heard....... Now concidering how bad you guys got it this year down there, and europe, and northern china....... its odd how mild some of canadas winter has been, while the south is comparably colder........

[Jova]

Hello... Just a quick reply after skimming through this post... Here in zone 6a southern Indiana, the Adam's Needle Yucca grows like a weed, and is certainly a tropical-looking plant, so look into that one... Also the musa basjoo banana, I've had these in the ground for 5 years with amazing performance, just cover them with plastic trash bags and a foot or so of mulch to over-winter them. You might also try the hardy hibiscus and a few of the hardy crape myrtles. Another one that I would recommend is the castor bean, grown as an annual (they can get 15 feet in a single growing season around here) Best of luck!

[canadianplant]

Thanks for the replies

The yucca, I have looked up before. It says its hardy to zone 5, which this winter i was in, or flirting very close. In my town its hard to get anything worth wild here, Id have to order it online. As fo the basjoo, Im trying to locate a canadian dealer for one, I dont wanna have to pay fer photo sanitary certificates, and cross border taxes.

I listied 2 hardy hibiscus....... are these the ones your talkking about? Mostechtos?

Cape myrtle??? THats from the SE states isnt it? Or the mediterranian? HArdy to zone 5 or 6 I belive? They are quite nice.........

As for the castor bean. They are very nice, and very tropical looking. Im a bit leary on how poisonus it is though.. If i cut off the seed pods before they grow, that pretty much gets rid of the possibility of poison right???

[lucky1]

Here's a good explanation of "ricin" (the powerful poison) in castor beans.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniont ... astor.html

We're all hoping a Canadian supplier "gets with it" and stocks exotics and tropicals.
To most Canadian nurseries, a Trachy is "exotic", LOL.

Jova, good suggestions.
If the Adam's Needle is a weed for you, you can probably grow Yucca rostrata and others with some winter protection.
They're trunking and gorgeous.

Barb

[Jova]

canadian plant, I looked up the hibiscus moscheutos, and it seems to be the same thing that I planted here, and that everyone grows around here without problems. The crape myrtles are from the SE USA. Most people around here just cut them back to the ground every year, but I'm experimenting with covering mine with leaf piles so I can grow them much larger, we'll see if they made it through the winter here in a few weeks:) As for castor bean, if you just cut off the seed pods, shouldn't be much of a problem I wouldn't think.

Barb, thanks for the recommendation on the yucca rostrata. I've always loved the way those look, just haven't gotten one yet because if I remember correctly, they were rather expensive last I checked. I'm putting in a cactus/desert bed this year, so maybe it's time to invest in that yucca:)

[Paul Ont]

Ok- Just got caught up on this thread... I'll have a quick look through and give you a run down on sources (Canadian) and thoughts on some plants.

Ricinus- Start them now. Think about finding the 'zanzibarensis' form. I may have misspelled the name of that.

Passiflora- Easy to germinate. You'll need to really pour the mulch on it if you want to overwinter it.

Pink Pampas Grass - NIce looking, but definately get a Miscanthus gigantus from hortico instead. Hortico is a good source for grasses, and they probably also have some good stuff that you can't get elsewhere.

Fargesia Rufa "green panda" - Did you see the pic of mine (exposed) that is crunchy after exposure to -22C? I would think that if yours has been covered by snow it will be fine...

Arundinaria gigantea ‘Macon’ - Mine died, so I can't say anything about it. Brad S. of needmore bamboo says that this is the only bamboo that can take -20F and have 'some' green foliage...

Fargesia murielae- Mine died in summer. Rated 'B' in Indiana...

Fargesia scabrida- Never tried it. Rated 'D' in Indiana...

Phyllostachys aureosulcata- Try it. Mulch and snow.

Phyllostachys bissetii- Try it. mulch and snow.

Phyllostachys nigra ‘Hale’ (Hardy Black)- Don't bother. It probably will be a poor performer.

Phyllostachys nuda- try it. mulch and snow.

Musa 'Basjoo' - Many online nurseires carry it. Try to get a 2 gallon size for it to have a shot at overwintering.

Sabal minor 'McCurtain' - Mine did first winter in the ground. Protected with leaf pile... It got too wet/cold. Even more moisture intolerant than needle palm.

Rhapidophyllum Hystrix - Try it. But you'll need some serious protection for it to overwinter well.

Yucca:
Yucca rostrata- I've killed maybe 10 of these, including a larger one that I had moisture protected. Maybe get a bunch of seed and hope for a hardier one... Or cross it wiht Yucca glauca to get a hardier rostrata like Yucca.

If I were you (I think I posted this earlier too) I'd try Yucca glauca an elata first, then move on to the non/less hardy types.

Others:
Hibiscus moscheutos- Tried it twice, killed it both times... Myabe have been too dry.

Canna Musafolia - dig up oand pot during winter. Yup. I used to grow this but was never pleased with its performance here... Maybe it's just not hot enough?

Gingo biloba- Should be hardy for you most years.