Winter protection for Zone 7 by novice

[TerdalFarm]

Here are a few snapshots of the backyard palms this week, after two weeks of very cold (for Oklahoma) weather, while I was absent in the tropics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... directlink

[lucky1]

Eric
The big Butia looks excellent, almost pre-winter!
The little guy sure benefited from the straw cover.

And the Trachies took a bit of a beating but look good where it counts.

The soil temp data virtually guarantees that the low temps were secondary.
Because you had everything covered from the raw wind.

Good luck fixing the water lines.
...and welcome back.
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

I have had a couple of questions lately about how my outdoor palms look now, a month after the very cold (3oF; several days below 20oF) in early January. Here are some snapshots I just took.
http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... directlink
I think the Ch. humilis and the Butia with the heat tape wrapped around the trunk are doing much better than I have any right to expect. The Butia with no electric heat is hanging in there. The Trachy is in bad shape but I am still hopeful. The spear does not pull, but the spear feels "soft" for the first time. I sprayed copper fungicide on all four outdoor palms (+ the indian hawthorn enduring its first winter).
They are all enjoying some fresh air and a bit of sunshine today. I'll cover them back up before the cold air and snow coming tomorrow.
As always, I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to help them with the winter-to-spring transition they have coming up.
--Erik

[hardyjim]

I think you got it,everything looks good(including the chickens),has the Trachys spear remained firm?

[TerdalFarm]

No, the Trachy spear is no longer firm. It does not pull loose when tugged, but the tissue feels soft. I am usually an optimist, but I now expect it to "pull" soon. I sprayed copper fungicide on it (and everything else) today. Any other advice?

[lucky1]

Erik,
Glad you're having a break in the weather, albeit shortlived if more snow is on the way.

The big Butia is impressive, looks like it shrugged off winter due to your protection...and the dog curling up in there at night.
The C. humilis looks surprisingly good.

Hey, the hen's sitting on the Butia spear!

Too bad the Trachy spear is soft, but it may surprise you since your soil remained so warm under snow this winter.

Barb

[hardyjim]

All you can do is wait and watch.
It's also a good idea to keep them on the dry side until the soil warms up and to keep the crown/spear dry,
at least during periods where freezing temps at night are possible.

[BILL MA]

Erik,
That Butia is looking fantastic under your palm hut!!! Great Job! The med fan looks good too.

As for that poor trachy, it looks like it got jumped into a Houston gang or something. It will live but it might need some intensive care.
Good thing your weathers warming up. By the way my washy looks like it joined the same gang

Nice chickens! By girlfriends always telling me to leave them alone. She caught me in the act this time.


Bill

[lucky1]

Bill, is that prod supposed to stimulate egg production? Your weather looks good to me.

[TerdalFarm]

Bill,
try turning them loose in your garden this Spring. At first I couldn't stand them in my garden as they ate seedlings. I put up a fence to keep them out. They got in anyways. Then I realized they ate weed seedlings, too. And ate every bug, tick, chigger, etc. And use their feet to till the soil for me (to them: to look for bugs and germinating seeds).
About the Trachy, Barb called it right a couple of months ago. The wind is a killer. I'll be the only one amongst us to lose a Trachy while keeping Butia and Chamearops. I haven't given up on it, but it will sure struggle to recover this Spring before the blazing hot weather arrives in June.
--Erik

[hardyjim]

You might be better off with a Waggie Erik

Barb
I think your kind of right,the chicken had just turned to the side!

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
I'll do that!
I have a nice Waggie I bought in 2007 (actually December 2006) from Cistus, in Oregon. It has lived in a pot and done nicely. I think it'll go in the ground this May.
--Erik

[lucky1]

Jim, no way to get an egg OUT...

Erik, did we mention Trachies hate blazing hot weather as much as cold winter winds? And high summer winds!
Yup, they do.

Like we suggested earlier, a spot that seems to prevent those conditions is usually close to a building, southeast, or east side.
Mine's on the east, and by noon when the real heat hits in July and August (100+ F), it's happily in the shade.
Morning sun is fine for Trachies in hot climates.

Baby your Trachy for a year or two until it's recovered enough to withstand transplanting to its final location.

Jim's got a good idea...and Waggie fronds can handle wind better than fortunei.

Or why not a Washy, plant it 4 feet from the south side of one of your barns...in late fall, a plywood "lean-to" can be added for winter with a heater, or the chickens can keep it warm.

I just don't want to be the only person with an "outhouse" against my residence...

[BILL MA]

Barb I never posted pictures of my structures, I have 3 out houses in the front and two in the back. Who cares winters ugly for the most part anyways, except for the first couple days after the snow. Like today another two inches, it just about goes away and then it snows more. Why couldn't it have snowed the whole month I was in Florida, I would have been ok with that.

Erik you might need to give your trachy a South Beach style umbrella to keep it from cooking. You'll be the first one on this site to protect your palms in the summer

See here's the comedy we've been missing, all it took was one picture and a chicken

Bill

[TerdalFarm]

Bill,
I'll do that; it'll be a funny thread for June.
When I was at Belize Botanic Gardens, I saw some of there protection. There were a few rainforest understory palms they had planted under a large tree, but then that large tree had died. That left the understory palm in full sun. They built protection with four upright sticks, connected at the top, and then covered with cut palm fronds. That might even be aesthetic, if I let vines grow up it.
I have been wondering if part of why the Trachy is suffering this winter is that it suffered last Summer. I planted it in May, then went to belize in June. While gone we had a week of 100oF days and it was not watered. However, it looks good when I got back, and the rest of the summer was cooler than usual with good rain (plus lots of watering from me). I thought it looked good when winter started.
I did place it on the NE side of a gazebo to shade it from afternoon sun in the summer. It is also protected slightly from dry winds blowing from the SW in August. I'll plant the Waggy somehwere in that area. It has spent each summer in a pot there--terra cotta, no less, which lets soil dry and get hot. It has been happy there and grows each summer in that spot.
Barb,
my wife and I divided up the gardens. I got the west and north sides of the house; she got the south and east sides.
To the south, she grows cool-season vegetables. We plan to enclose it in a green-house-type structure in hopes of getting garden-fresh veggies all winter. In the summer, that spot gets so hot nothing grows there.
To the east, we face the street. My wife has a pink-themed garden. However, there is a spot between two boxwood shrubs she is not using. I'll ask if I can put the new Trachy (5 gallon pot) I bought in Texas in October in that spot. It would get morning sun, afternoon shade, and terrific wind protection. I can plant pink annuals around it. Think she'll go for it?
I have not planted anything at all on the north side of the house. I might put a fern garden in.
all my palms and tropical-looking plants are on the wind-blasted west side of the house around the pool. It looks great for pool parties June through October.
I could probably put in a winter outhouse up against the west wall to protect something like a Washy. However, that spot gets amazingly hot in summer. Would even Washy put up with that? Would a Phoenix? I was planning to try figs (Ficus carica) there. Date palms and figs seem to me to go together.
-Erik

[BILL MA]

Erik,
On your North side you should plant acuba's (gold dust plant) they would do perfect in the shade. As for the South try a oleander or 5, I'll let you know if mine survived. They are bullet proof in the sun, really poisonous though, just don't eat it

As for the washy I don't think you could overheat it, It will most likely just grow like a weed which would be ok. I don't think the chickens could eat it.

Bill

[TerdalFarm]

Bill,
I think I will try an Aucuba there. The only one I planted here in Oklahoma died in its first winter. However, a locally-owned and very responsible nursery sells them. The main problem I see is that it will be blasted by winter winds.
I generally avoid poisonous plants, but made a major exception for a Brugmansia last summer. The chickens left it alone. And yes, they leave Washy alone!
My wife's potted Washy was in a pot on a gravel "beach" where it also gets astoundingly hot. You're right--it did just fine.
Any thoughts on Phoenix and high heat? Yes, it would need the "outhouse" treatment.
--Erik

[BILL MA]

I haven't really done much research on any of the Phoenix species, there is on that starts with a L I think that is supposed to be the toughest. Sylvester's are cheap in Florida so I'm sure there cheap in Texas too. There pretty tough as well.

My guess would be they could take the heat coming from the desert. Give one a shot there easy to tie up as long as you don't get stabbed in the process.

As for the acuba they do fine here unprotected as long as there out of the sun in the winter. They would be very easy to throw a frost cloth over to if heavy cold winds where coming too.

Bill

[lucky1]

Erik, your wife got the best deal on "sides of the house".
The prospective east "pink" location...5 or 6 feet from the house, I'd recommend, would be perfect.
Not too far re extension cord for heater, and if you absolutely had to, you could nail up an "outhouse" or lean-to.

"the wind-blasted west side around the pool" sounds like it could use a perimeter (3 sides) evergreen windbreak.
Not only gives you privacy, keeps the wind from getting at plants and blowing lawn furniture and umbrellas to the next county.
A Fir hedge can be clipped once a year to maintain boxy shape, slowly increasing to, say 10 feet high.
We have a fir hedge on the windward side of driveway, it's filled in nicely and keeps snowdrifts from closing driveway.

On the north side of my place, I've got periwinkle and ground ivy.
Both a mistake. Are there cold-zone ferns?...(ferns also don't like wind)

Washingtonia filifera like it hot hot hot, the hotter the better, south and west, but be prepared to keep soil AND air warm in Fall,winter & spring...a tough proposition. Prepare for inevitable power outages with a generator and something to start it up if you're not home...a tall order.
Same with CIDP-canary island date palm...loves the heat as much as a Washy does, but I'd never try it in the ground.
Terra cotta pots are good for succulents etc, but require soooooo much watering for palms.

Maybe plan a BIG sunroom addition with a dirt floor? I'd love to do that but H says "nope".
He thinks it would look like a BIG outhouse...


Bill,
saw your structures before you set them up.
Did you post a finished picture?
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

I'll do some reading and thought.
About the "H" saying "nope", I got a dictate from the "W" last night saying no palms costing >$50 could be put in the ground ever again.

I may have to create counterfeit "sale item" tags....

[hardyjim]

I'll do some reading and thought.
About the "H" saying "nope", I got a dictate from the "W" last night saying no palms costing >$50 could be put in the ground ever again.

I may have to create counterfeit "sale item" tags....

I doubt you would be the first to do that!

Bill
Were you referring to Phoenix loureirii

[lucky1]

create counterfeit "sale item" tags

attaboy...

[BILL MA]

Phoenix loureirii, that's the one thank you Jim!

Erik, you have a big property right? You might need to fine a nice sunny obscure spot somewhere to plant all your above 50 dollar specimen palms!
Just think you can sneak in a few washies too

Bill

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks for all the good ideas. I've been thinking about them. Here's what I've come up with...
Phoenix: no way. After this winter, I'm just grateful to (hopefully) get Chamearops, Butia and maybe Trachy through. I lost my Washies in Spring last year, so I am not counting my eggs just yet (get the hen joke, Bill? )
We're forecast to have a cool, wet March. Perhaps better than last year, when mid-March was sunny with temps in the 80soF followed by a heavy snow March 28 and freezing weather into April.
So, I expect to be busy with what I have for another couple of months keeping them dry.
My main decision this Spring will be with what to do with the palms that have been in the cold "ballroom" (Sabal mexicana, Trachy, Waggy, Brahea, Jubea).
What do you think about Sabal mexicana up against the West wall? Can they handle the heat? I could give them Barb's "outhouse" treatment in November.
Barb's hedge proposal: a great idea, and one I've thought of. But I can't/won't do it.
It would block my view to the west, which is important to me. I want my pool-side tropical garden to blend visually into the Bermuda-grass pasture beyond. Bermuda grass is a tropical exotic here in Oklahoma that does great in the heat of summer and is very high in nitrogen for the horses. So, the effect in Summer is to sit by the pool and see palms and bananas in the foreground and horses, goats and chickens on tropical grass in the mid-ground. In the distance (~300 yards) is a dense woods maintained by a neighbor. In the evening, the sun sets over that forest, back-lighting the horses, palms, etc. A wind-block hedge would block that fabulous view-shed. So, I'm stuck in winter with those horrible NW winds. They just are not usually so strong as they were this winter. Remember, we had our first EVER blizzard this year.
What I'm going to do instead is probably too little to make a difference. I'm going to plant a mini-hedge of BLEs. I planted a few species as trials last year. The dwarf Burford holly has been a champ. It has remained a bright cheerful green all winter. So much so that a horse even broke into my poolside garden one day last month to try eating it. (He didn't like it, but broke a few twigs off.) Nandina and Euonymous have done OK. The Indian Hawthorn has struggled even though I protected it with hay and a bucket. I think it will survive. An unprotected Photinia with no protection has really struggled but will probably recover. So, I think I'll design a low border of plants like these to the N and W of my palms to give some (trivial?) winter wind protection to the palms in future winters. Feel free to chime in with, "not worth the trouble."
Bill, about hiding palms out back: I might get away with that. Our 7 acres are long (300 yards) and skinny (100 yards). My wife rarely goes out to the back acre so it is "my" space. There is no piped water or electricity out there. I'm thinking Sabal minor. If she spots them, I can say we have a newly discovered population. We'll get rich hawking "Sabal minor 'Tulsa' " seeds on eBay!
Actually, that back acre plays into my plans in another way. Her hobby is horses--Andalusian horses. She just agreed to "rescue" a couple of mares in poor condition from an owner of 15 who cannot afford to feed them as her business is struggling. The "W" figures she'll spend US$3,000 on them this first year. She plans to put them on that back acre next week. So, I figure she has to put up with a few palms costing >US$50 if I help feed and care for those poor mares, right?
--Erik

[lucky1]

Erik, thanks for giving all our suggestions sooooo much thought.

You mentioned your cold weather in March and April last year. We had a lousy spring, too. Very cold winds in April, both 2008 and 2009.

Your other palms that can't make it through winter outdoors...have you considered just putting them into gorgeous pots, and siting them around the pool, looking very tropical (which is what you want to see from the window anyway) Every winter back into the ballroom until they get too tall for ceiling. I have no experience with Sabals (my mexicana is 6 inches tall), but sounds like it's your west wall/"November outhouse" candidate.

But unless you really want that mini-hedge in that spot, don't bother.
A low hedge will not protect a growing palm from winter's brutal winds.
An insulated structure will.

The way you described the bermuda grass pasture, the neighbor's forest and the farm animals in between sounds really lovely.
I wouldn't wreck that view either.

Glad your wife's adopting the two horses...I bet she's worried how the 13 remaining will fare.

Erik, thanks for taking the time to provide the description of your place...got a good feel for how lovely it is.
Barb

[hardyjim]

I have been really curious how this winter is going to finish out here but
also in places like where you are Barb.
In my area a warm winter or winter with periods of significant warmth
usually this means a seriously f-uped spring.
I hope that doesn't play out for you guys there.

[lucky1]

Strange thing, having had 2 lousy springs in 2009 and 2008. Cold and raw in April, really unusual.
Years ago we'd be in shirtsleeves in the garden in March.

Winter of 2008/09 saw tons and tons of snow and the normal Siberian outflows for a cold December.
Winter of 2009/10 saw zippo snow (a few inches, twice) and the normal cold in December, but for a short time only.

We may have a horrible spring again; hard to see any pattern emerging.
Barb

[BILL MA]

Erik your property sounds really amazing! Great description too, it was almost like being there.

As for the palms, they really need at least 2 years of babying in the ground before they become fully hardy. (I'm sure you know) So don't give up totally on the tough ones yet.

When you had your washy die what went wrong? How did you protect it, and when did you take the protection off? Leaves cut off or left on?
I really think you can get away with a washy if you plan it out step by step from the beginning. Maybe your ph was way to high, they don't like acid.

As for the sabals tough as nails regarding heat! Try a brazoria they grow really fast for a sabal, the color is really nice too. I should have got on in NC.

By the way my burford hollies are doing good too with no protection out in the open for there first year, just a little burn.

Bill

[lucky1]

ph was way to high, they don't like acid.

I don't mean to be a nit-picker but high pH would make it alkaline; low pH is acid.
Barb

[BILL MA]

Thanks Barb!

I don't know what I was writing apparently, I think I was trying to say the ph was probably off and acidity was to high.

Bill

[lucky1]

That's it...verbal shorthand

[TerdalFarm]

I get those right about half the time...like saying, "turn right here" no, "left here, yes that's right."

[TerdalFarm]

[quote="BILL MA"]When you had your washy die what went wrong? How did you protect it, and when did you take the protection off? Leaves cut off or left on?
I really think you can get away with a washy if you plan it out step by step from the beginning. Maybe your ph was way to high, they don't like acid.[/quote]

I was afraid someone would ask this. It was totally my ignorance.
The Washy filifera made it through the winter of 07/08 in a leaf cage filled with hay up to the crown. No cover. Leaves turned brown but new ones grew great. Trunk got taller and much thicker over the summer of '08.
I thought this was easy, so I convinced my wife to let me plant one of her robustas in May of '08.
Fall of '08, I again made the wire leaf cages. Instead of filling them with nice, clean hay, I used hay chaffe from the horse stalls. I.e., I scooped up what was on the floor of the stalls. Recycling, right?
Again no cover. They did just fine through a mild winter, with lows of 10oF. Green petioles come March '09. Temps got into the 80soF. Hmmm....should I remove the now rotting hay/manure mix? Nah, it might get cold again. It did, with 10" snow March 28 and temps into the mid-20soF to mid-April.
By late April, the poor Washies were feeling mushy. I applied LOTS of copper fungicide. Is there such a thing as too much? If so, I gave them too much. Spears pulled. I applied more copper. Removed the rotten hay/manure. Applied more copper. No sign of green. I told my wife to be patient--they'd come back. The remnants of the trunks are still there. Praying for a miracle. Won't happen.
So, what I think I did was kill them by creating the perfect conditions for fungal growth: manure and moisture, accelerated with warmth in March.
If I had used fresh clean hay, and covered them on top to keep rain out, I might have made it. Esp. with the filifera in its 2nd winter. Instead, I just made my wife mad for killing one of her two robustas. All summer she pointed to the robusta in the pot, which grew very well, and said, well, you can imagine what she said.
So, Bill, will I try Washy again? Maybe. I've recently made contact with someone (using EPS, of all places) with a tall Washy in downtown Tulsa (urban heat island and all). I plan to visit his garden in late March to learn his tricks. I am now comfortable using heat tape on palms. I love how well Washy grows in the summer heat here. I guess the answer is yes, I'll try another filifera in the ground. And hope my wife doesn't notice.
--Erik

[BILL MA]

I'm sure you can find a real beauty for 50 bucks

Cut all the fronds off, use DRY hay, and cover it in plastic to keep all the rain off and you'll have a winner every year there.

Bill

[TerdalFarm]

Amazing how H-D will have a sale on 15 gallon palms in May this year.

[lucky1]

Erik it would be great if the fellow you visit allows you to take photos.

I share your pain reliving the demise of those palms.

Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
it is indeed embarrassing in retrospect.
As for the promised garden tour, I will ask permission to take photos and post a slideshow.
As a tease, he posted photos in response to my EPS introductory post:
http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/top ... picid=2539
That Washy has to have at least 10' of trunk on it!
--Erik

[lucky1]

Erik we've all done the same (and worse), so no need to be embarrassed.

That fellow's site...this will save some time looking for it.

I hope Mr. L doesn't mind this being posted here:

http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/_forumima ... edited.jpg

http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/_forumima ... edited.jpg

Stunning...I want to visit this palm too!

Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
you can now see why I'm so excited.
You've seen what I have.
Well, this chap is ~15 miles from me! Granted, he is in the ideal spot to catch the urban heat island effect, but nonetheless I think I can learn a lot from him.
--Erik

[lucky1]

~ 15 miles?

You may not have a heat island but you'll have a hot barn wall next winter...

Heck if he can grow that 15 miles from your place, you can plant tons of stuff, just a bit more work

Great news for your place!!!