New idea for palm huts this winter.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:51 am

I'm looking for some feedback on this idea.

I took 55 gallon plastic drums, cut the top and bottom off and cut down top to bottom. I can essentially wrap the palm in drums, cap it, shrink wrap the seams and have a full enclosure with minimal effort.

My question is how to handle the inside. It's pretty tight but I think I can make things work. I am thinking frost cloth the fronds, stick a bulb or two of some sort inside near the crown, and candy cane wrap with an r12 batting starting at the bottom and go up to the top.

Will I see some rot doing this if I leave a small opening near the top and bottom?

I expect to brace with some arms going down diagonally, but I don't expect there to be too much of an issue of them blowing over like my wooden boxes because for one, they're round and now the tree will be taking somewhat of a structural load if the drum is blown up against the tree.

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TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:38 am

Looks good to me. You'll cover the top, right?

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:49 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Looks good to me. You'll cover the top, right?

top will be covered and at this point I think I'll shrink wrap it from top to bottom with a little venting to help moisture.

I'm just getting sick of pulling heavy doors out of my shed. They take up a ton of space and the original ones are getting to the point where they're separating and I foresee rotting. With these drums, I can toss them out behind the shed and not worry about them over summer.

There's some tweaking that I foresee needing to be done, so I'm thinking doing one this year to get my system in place.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Then all that is left is the electric heat in there to keep it from getting too cold, but not hot. I like pipe heating tape, but most here use c9 (incandescent) christmas lights on a thermocube.

905palms · Post by **905palms** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:52 pm

Pretty cool, that should do it. Those drums will cut down the wind chill bigtime. The fronds on the inside should have a frost cloth around them, wound snugly. Only thing I see, if the fronds touch the cold drum plastic they will get frost burnt for sure. Shrink wrap the outside with vents, and C9's around the base as you said, and then add mulch to the outside perimeter, and you're golden.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:53 am

I used these very same plastic drums last winter much like you described. I didn't stack them. Some I left the bottom and just turned them upside down. Others I did cut top and bottom off and used tinted plexiglass over the top. For the palm that were more exposed to windy conditions I used 5ft pieces of rebar and pounded into the ground two feet right next to the barrel then simply used a ratcheting strap to hold barrel tight. For the taller palms I simply took a longer piece of 1 inch PVC and slid it over the rebar and used the straps further up using the PVC as support extension to the rebar.

The issue?? storage of the barrels in the off season. I have a lot of palms to protect now. I can get the barrels from work easy enough but looks unsightly piled up next to my shed outside.

Beny · Post by **Beny** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:42 pm

In my case, this year with the wrapping, i will add some fiberglass insulation ( 2-3 inches) around the foliage to prevent the leaves to touch directly the cold enclosure. That caused a few burn tips on the exterior leaves of the palms, expecialy with the Trachy's. Did not have burn tips on the Butia. maybe because the leaves on the Butia are smaller and resist more when touching the cold enclosure

...
With that, those palms will be ok and hope they will not have dommage next winters

...

Ben

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:14 am

I may try to see if spray able foam will stick to the inside of the barrel. Don't think it will, but would be added measure of insulation.

905palms · Post by **905palms** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:55 am

I like Beny's idea, however I would use the Roxul (fire, water and mold proof) insulation, instead of the standard pink. Besides its not fiberglass, where the micro-chard's won't splinter inside the fronds, causing further damage.

I agree also, the Pindo leaves seems to be more resistant to the enclosure surface.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:13 am

905, what specific type of Roxul insulation do you use? I GOOGLED it, and there are various types.

I've always liked the idea of using "BAT" insulation, but feared moisture retention and mold.

Scott

905palms · Post by **905palms** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:07 am

Hi Scott, Comfortboard, I've attached the link below. They are found at lowes.
I find the easy to store as they are somewhT rigid and small enough to handle easily. They can be pliable as well to a certain degree.
It maybe worth a try.

http://www.roxul.com/files/RX-NA_EN/pdf ... sement.pdf

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:11 am

Thanks, so this is a semi rigid "board" type insulation?

I will still use plastic barrels for first level protection, but as you know has NO insulation value, so am looking for something to line the barrel with.

Thanks!

Scott

Syano10 · Post by **Syano10** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:24 am

Just a thought ... but if you doubled up the cut barrels and placed insulation in between them would that be an option. (Not sure how many barrells you have access to) But in essence you would have an insulated barrel

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:27 am

Very true...the key still is to use insulation that won't get saturated with wetness.

Syano10 · Post by **Syano10** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:36 am

and then shrink wrap the sides and fasten some type of top to cover and also be able to vent it.

The more i'm thinking of this the more it is making sense.

If I only had access to these barrells.

The cut length wise would allow some flexibility and rebar or something pounded in ground would give it stability.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:48 am

Syanno, Stop at car washes as the soap comes in those barrels, or just about any place that has floor scrubbing machine. I get mine from work and we re-manufacture transmission and the empty barrels are stacked for some company to take and re cycle. I try and get the semi clear ones so some sunlight comes through.

Here is my stash...some I cut in 1/2 to use on smaller palms and use thick plexiglass cover cut in 2x2 squares and just put brick on top.

Syano10 · Post by **Syano10** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:34 am

great ill look this weekend!
If when you cut the bottom leave a lip that can be fastened together to keep out moisture and on the top do the same. would that work with insulation in between the two barrels. and no moisture in the insulation.

905palms · Post by **905palms** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:23 pm

I'm pretty sure the Roxul panels will ply with the inner curve of the barrels. I just dont now how to glue them onto the inner side of the barrel.
I like Syano10's idea of shrink wrap to fasten the barrel wall shut.
In your picture you have that re-bar mesh in the back, that can be your structure wrapped in bubble wrap as your insulation instead.... just a thought, perhaps you've done that already.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:42 pm

That is a wire mesh that I use to also protect palms. I wrap the mesh once it's around the palm with industrial strength shrink wrap that I also get from work. The beauty of using that is I can easily make the cage any height that I want by simply adding 5 ft sections.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:53 pm

I think this year I'm going to use the drums on the palm that lost all of it's fronds last season. It put out 6-8 fronds this summer, but it'll be much easier to inclose that than the fuller trees. I'm thinking Frost Cloth wrapped around the fronds 4-5 times, does this sound right? Then wrap a batting at least around the fronds and follow with the C9 lights.

I have found that c9 lights are only good for about two seasons before the bulbs are shot, at least in my area, with how much they need to be one. Granted I wasn't making real air tight enclosures with my wood doors so I know they were on ALOT. I still have 8-10 new in box strands, but I want to get to the point where I can put a couple fluorescence bulbs in to keep electrical costs down and simplify.

Do you think wrapping the trunk and then concentrate the remainder of the bulbs around the crown won't be too hot? I normally put two stands in each box, but I'm thinking with the drums I can get away with one, or at the least, less bulbs around the thermo cube and more around the ground.

I will have bags of mulch around the base of the drums for sure since the foot prints are smaller than my 3 x 3.5 foot boxes normally are.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:15 pm

I think anything you can do to insulate, yet not trap moisture will be a good thing.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:29 pm

sashaeffer wrote:I think anything you can do to insulate, yet not trap moisture will be a good thing.

Those ideas seem to be in competition with each other.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:33 pm

You make the structure so it vents by drilling holes, or simply not keeping it air tight.

Beny · Post by **Beny** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:12 am

Im agree 905, but if i use the fiberglass insulation , i will put it over the small insulation ( for hot water reservoir, AYRFOIL). So between the tarp and the AYRFOIL. Like that, never the fiberglass insulation will touch the fronds and that will prevent the fronds to touch the cold tarp

...

Ben

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:25 am

Any issues I've had hasn't been keeping them "warm" enough, it's been the ones that get limited winter sun so they tend to get more fungus from moisture (condensation)

Another reason why I leave tops off protection as much as I can so they can breathe. Palms on South side of the house get plenty of sun, and issue is over heating in structure not so much moisture build up. It's a learning thing, to know what specifics you have to do for individual palms of the same species based on where they are located.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:15 pm

I have purposely kept things not air tight with my boxes and have had no issues with fungus. Obviously the barrels will be a bit more air tight, I just need to figure out how I want to work with them this winter.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:30 am

Will be anxious to see what you come up with. Beauty of these forums is really to share and learn new protection methods.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:46 pm

So far it seems the lights are on more in the drum set up test than in the wooden boxes..... We'll see what damage I'm looking at when it gets really cold for the season. So far we things have warmed and they're talking like we will get an El nino winter which means warmer than normal.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:12 am

Doug, I'm guessing that the slab wood of the doors is a better insulator against cold than 1/4 inch thick plastic.

Barb

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:20 am

lucky1 wrote:Doug, I'm guessing that the slab wood of the doors is a better insulator against cold than 1/4 inch thick plastic.

Barb

I don't disagree, but as my trees get taller I have to figure something out that will grow with them and building wooden boxes over 10 feet tall starts to get dangerous. I will say so far with some basic bracing the drums have done awesome with the winds that I get here (no broad flat sides).

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:19 am

Yea...the curved contour really is not effected by wind to much.

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wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:01 pm

Here's an update on things. I uncovered 3 of my 5 tonight. Let's just say the drums were 10x easier to remove and drag behind my shed for storage this summer vs the solid core doors!

Also, I have to say that the palm covered with the drums (uninsulated by the way) is in better shape than the other two so far. The first wooden box I took off only had one strand of c9 lights in it and i found it fell off it's palm boot makeshift hook and was laying on the ground all winter.... that left most of my foliage on that tree essentially dead...

Here's the tree in the drums:
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My son helper
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frost cloth removed.
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Freezer burn
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unstrapped
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Second tree with one strand of lights - this one was boxed.
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how i found it
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Last tree. In better shape than the second, but still some burn on it.

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Beny · Post by **Beny** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:55 am

Nice, good job...as i can see, you did not put light around the foliage right ? So the heat produced by the light at the base of the palm go up and heat the foliage. That what i should do with the wrapping. Its almost the same way instead of having plastic barrel its Ayrfoil and tarp. Finally it does the same job i think

Ben

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:38 pm

Doug, good results considering the winter you folks had.

Hilarious that the lights are still in the manufacturer's retail holders.

Obviously worked.

I always lay my C9s on the ground to keep the ground from freezing.
And as Beny says, heat goes up, keeping the fronds warmish.

Thanks for the update.
Barb

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:39 pm

Barb, I got sick of unwrapping the lights that i had draped all around the tree and figured this was much easier. I think next year I will be looking at putting two heat lamps in two stakes in the ground facing up because I literally get about one year out of the c9 bulbs before they all blow. I'm also going to look at doing spray foam in the barrels as well.

Beny, getting some sort of light up in the foliage is a good idea b/c I can see how mine took a hit.

I will say the drum was one of the easiest things to deconstruct.... I unwrapped it, pulled it apart, moved it from around the tree and dragged it behind my shed. I have a new plan on making new ones to make them more sturdy in the future, but they seem to be the way to go at this point and I can scale them up quite easily as the trees grow.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:46 pm

These cheap made in China Christmas lights and bulbs are just not worth relying on. Had so many bulb failures this winter. Going more Cocoanuts mikes route and using better insulation and lower watt bulbs, possibly CFL's.

Barrels I used this past winter I have began spraying with foam insulation and it sticks great to the walls so should provide great insulation to retain the little heat CFL's put out.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:51 pm

cheap made in China Christmas lights and bulbs

Yup, total crap.

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:57 pm

No one thought of using a heat lamp in a socket on a stake in the ground pointing up?

wheelman1976 · Post by **wheelman1976** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:03 pm

Well it's all or nothing this winter. All four (lost my smallest one this past spring) of my palms are now "barreled up." I have two 150 watt heat lamps in each box, one near the crown and the other at the base facing up with the thermocube about 2 feet away from the lamp on the ground. So far this evening I am getting cycling on and off.

I'll have to snap some pics, but basically the drums are better built versions of what I used last year with success. Inside the fronds are pulled up and then wrapped with frost cloth (couple layers) and then I stuffed some insulation batting in on the areas where the frost cloth was touching the barrels. I bought some pipe insulation to put on the vertical slit and I am using ratchet straps to pull everything tight. I finish everything off by making the top watertight with a cheap harbor freight tarp and then throw 3 bags of 3 cubic feet mulch around the base.

Next year my oldest and largest three I think is going to need a four barrel enclosure.... I'm not as beat physically as I was in years past building boxes with solid core doors so I think I'm making progress in that regard. Now if global warming would just rid Michigan of proper winters I would be happy.... Wish my job allowed me to move to south florida...

Bato367 · Post by **Bato367** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:28 pm

I'm by no means an insulation expert or a palm winterization guru, but speaking in generalities, I believe the best insulation is AIR. So, if you can provide and air gap between a casing and another casing, that form of insulation is desirable. Take double-pane windows for example; or an igloo cooler with its two separate shells and foam that fills the air gap. Just thought I'd throw that out there and get the wheels turning. Good luck to all you palm nuts this winter!

From what I've read on El Nino, you have apx. a 50/50 chance depending on where you live, of either being cold and wet or warm and dry.