Future prosperity for America?

andym · Post by **andym** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:20 am

You may or may not know that the green lobby that were 30 years ago considered crackpots in my Country are now actually mainstream and include our Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron. We will be paying silly money for energy that is carbon free produced. As a result of this many Industrial Companies with high Carbon energy use are looking to relocate abroad. I wonder if these green "thought police" ever thought of that

Well it was good news in the Daily Mail yesterday that Nigel Lawson a former Minister in Government announced a revolution in Energy production which is already happening in the US.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... l#comments
I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this future prosperity.
BTW my beef with the green lobby is why should we paying extortionate prices that makes our Industry uncompetitive and put people out of work when we are in a deep recession?

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:14 pm

andym wrote: BTW my beef with the green lobby is why should we paying extortionate prices that makes our Industry uncompetitive and put people out of work when we are in a deep recession?

I agree, even though I love the idea of green energy, I have yet to see a good way to produce it on a large scale. It is well done when is placed on privite property and in parking lots and roofs, I think it is wonderful...I just think the people that want it should pay for it.

PS I have seen more vast areas off land rapped in the name of solar and wind than any thing else I have personaly seen with my own eyes.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:13 pm

the green lobby that were 30 years ago considered crackpots in my Country are now actually mainstream

Same here Andy.
Seems it was contagious...direct result of all those "G" meetings.

a revolution in Energy production

Turns out there's sufficient oil/natural gas under North American soil that we don't have to buy from you know where anymore.
The biggest issue is the damaging methods of extraction.
Fracking (apparently) causes earthquakes, and we've all seen photos of the devastation of "oilsands" development, with its HUGE water demand.

produce it on a large scale

Exactly Aaron.

I think THE biggest issue today is what's "silently" being agreed upon by industrialized vs. sea-level nations re "compensation" for sea level rise based on "our" actions. If sea-level nations are successful in gaining compensation as their islands dip below the waves, this will keep industrialized nations from EVER climbing out of the economic downturn. Wish the GW science were pure so there was something definitive to rely on.
Good story here on BBC (as usual).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20653018

I'll climb off my soapbox now...

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:40 pm

we live in a world where this is acceptable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amqXocVjpJA

great news for smokers....you can water the grass and light your smokes!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:04 am

This article has been floating around for a few weeks now. A few things caught my attention:

- It mentions nothing about the US being the biggest importer of oil, along with the most usage (more then half is used for its military)
- Lots of people dont want albertas "dirty oil", so why should people want the US?
- Fracking does cause earthquakes, there is a wealth of information about it out there now. A good amount of the oil is in the same general area as the Madrid fault line. Theres a "great" place to frak.

THis one is the big thing None of the articles talked about reserves in the arctic, and failed to mention Russia has almost half the oil and gas up there, not to mention Russia has been fairly quiet about its trading partners. Russia also has the worlds largest supply of industrial grade diamonds, something like 4 TRILLION carats worth. The article ignored the entire arctic issue. Russia has already lengthened the shipping season along the north shores.

Carbon is the main focus because of what it can do. IT isnt JUST carbon, its the domino effect that releasing carbon can do. Think of th PETM (pleisoscene Eoscene Thermal Maximum). Excess carbon built in the atmosphere, which raised the worlds temps and ocean temps. This wasnt a huge deal, as it was generally slow. It warmed up so much, it melted frozen methane on the ocean floor. Methane is something like 5 times more effective at warming then CO2, but the bulk is frozen in the oceans.

The real problem that CO2 poses, is that it can melt and release vast mounts of methane in the atmosphere, which like the PETM, saw the world loose its ice caps. This is the event that lead to the evolution of apes, hooved animals, and most modern animals. All modern plants are represented as well.

Unfortunately, we are putting CO2 in the atmosphere faster then in the PETM, also while biting the hand that feeds us (cutting down half the worlds forests). Mind you, we are doing nothing like what the siberian traps did at the end of the Permian, or what the indian traps did during the cretaceous. We also released record amounts of CO2 in 2012.

Its basically our society is based on industry. Industry of basically one product: Oil. Oil is tied to everything, even non petroleum based industry (say, natural gas, or our drinking water, and to our food due to petroleum based fertilizer.) The whole basis of carbon tax is to make the nation aware of how much CO2 they are releasing and the best way to do that, is to make them pay due to overuse. The real problem is again, co2 emissions are usually tied to economic growth, or the growth of a country. China and India release much more CO2 then the US and Canada, but because they are "developing", they arent bound to carbon tax, or treaties like Kyoto.

If also doesnt help, that there are countries with states like North Carolina, who use religion to make excuses for ignoring things like coastal erosion and sea level rise, making the situation much harder to get a clear picture of.

Ok sorry, went a bit off topic there..... The long and short of it, is that the US will never have a lot of oil, strickly because they use too much, and have to import over 40% of their oil (most from canada), and Canada has to import even more, because its refined in the US. On top of that, use of petroleum based products and oil in general is going up, not down. Countries like Russia have more easily obtained oil then the US could dream of, and Canada has opened oil trade with China. The infrastructure needs to be put in place, along with deforestation even before then can get to it. By then Russia will already have opened more arctic outposts and wells, and canada will have been sending China oil for a few years, while also expanding our oil exploration in Saskatchewan, Alberta, SE Manitoba and the arctic.

The real winner out of this, is going to be the country whos economy isnt based strictly on oil (ie renewable energy or self sustainability).

/end rant

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:16 pm

As long as we have a growing population we are going to need fuels, we can not ignore that fact. Until we have better tech in batteries and a better green power source we will need fuels.
I guess we can grow corn on all wild spaces like the vast jungles in south america? As bad as I hate the idea, I would rather see it come from a hole in the ground.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:19 pm

hardyjim wrote:we live in a world where this is acceptable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amqXocVjpJA

great news for smokers....you can water the grass and light your smokes!

I wonder if they could heat their house with that.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:27 pm

DesertZone wrote:As long as we have a growing population we are going to need fuels, we can not ignore that fact. Until we have better tech in batteries and a better green power source we will need fuels.
I guess we can grow corn on all wild spaces like the vast jungles in south america? As bad as I hate the idea, I would rather see it come from a hole in the ground.

We dont have enough space to grow crops for fuel, as well as food.

And yes, of course we need fuel, because our entire society is based around industry/oil. We would need something as cheap and readily available. Unfortunately, we have nothing of the sort, besides using many of the modern renewable resources until somethin is made widely accessable.

Personally, I like the idea of using algae as a biofuel....

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:13 am

[quote="canadianplant]Personally, I like the idea of using algae as a biofuel....[/quote]

I know one of people that are on the frontier of the algae use, it is an amazing plant. A little fermentation and it makes for a clean burning alcohol, and also has great prospects for oils.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:20 am

DesertZone wrote:
hardyjim wrote:we live in a world where this is acceptable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amqXocVjpJA

great news for smokers....you can water the grass and light your smokes!
I wonder if they could heat their house with that.

LOL

Some of these people were told the water is safe to drink.....
but when you offer them a glass they will not drink it.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:24 am

DesertZone wrote:[quote="canadianplant]Personally, I like the idea of using algae as a biofuel....

I know one of people that are on the frontier of the algae use, it is an amazing plant. A little fermentation and it makes for a clean burning alcohol, and also has great prospects for oils.

[/quote]

Its probably the closet thing we have "available" that is as versitile as oil (gas is pretty close too). Gas can be used to make polyethaline, while algea can be used as a fuel source, which is 99% renewable, only needing water and sunlight. The tech isnt quite there ATM, but its probably the best option we got.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:18 am

As though anyone needs proof fracking scientists can be "bought":

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/0 ... ion-study/

And of course the BC government LOVED his "research".

Barb

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:23 am

Even without fracking some wells are full of gas. When I was in western Idaho we had a well that exploded and blew a wall out of a pump house.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:07 pm

DesertZone wrote:Even without fracking some wells are full of gas. When I was in western Idaho we had a well that exploded and blew a wall out of a pump house.

Now they can all be that way.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:40 pm

Just for fun what does everyone heat thier house with?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:06 pm

what does everyone heat their house with?

Electric baseboards, but never use them.
Too expensive at approx. 8 cents/kWh (a higher rate kicks in if you go over 1,350 kwH/month usage).

Airtight woodstove (Pacific Energy Co. "Summit" model) in basement heats the entire house...warm floors/walls = very comfy.

As long as my firewood supplier (birch) doesn't move away.
Use 5+ cords of birch in 5 months.

...oh, and the palm huts are electricity

and bags of leaves.

Barb

EDIT: forgot to say natural gas isn't available in this area. no furnace anyway.

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:54 am

green is good but we must transition to green in a manner which won't cause economic turmoil. There seems to be a perception that if we lower man made CO2 emissions that climate change will 'stop' or won't change. This perception needs to change. Man does not control climate change.

What's the plan when sea levels rise another 10 feet?

What's the plan when sea levels drop 300 feet?

What's the plan when the next ice age comes?

What's the plan when the next mega-volcano hits Wyoming?

What's the plan when the next huge meteor hits?

All the occurrences listed above happened without man made CO2 emissions and WILL happen again.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:10 am

DesertZone wrote:Just for fun what does everyone heat thier house with?

I use electric, but I want a wood burning stove in the future. Burning wood by the way is a comeplete carbon.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:23 am

TimMAz6 wrote:green is good but we must transition to green in a manner which won't cause economic turmoil. There seems to be a perception that if we lower man made CO2 emissions that climate change will 'stop' or won't change. This perception needs to change. Man does not control climate change.

What's the plan when sea levels rise another 10 feet?

What's the plan when sea levels drop 300 feet?

What's the plan when the next ice age comes?

What's the plan when the next mega-volcano hits Wyoming?

What's the plan when the next huge meteor hits?

All the occurrences listed above happened without man made CO2 emissions and WILL happen again.

Glad you asked-

1.Move out of Florida

2.Move back to Florida

3.Buy a warmer coat

4.Back to Florida again

5.Always bring a baseball glove,like at the ballgame-b-ready

6.Hopefully it doesn't happen all at once but I will have my ball glove ready

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:00 am

TimMAz6 wrote:green is good but we must transition to green in a manner which won't cause economic turmoil. There seems to be a perception that if we lower man made CO2 emissions that climate change will 'stop' or won't change. This perception needs to change. Man does not control climate change.

Even if every single person on this planet disappeared and we stopped putting CO2 in the atmosphere, it would take 20 years for the planet to stop warming, and another 50 - 100 years to even make a mark (forests need to grow to absorb and deposit carbon in the ground, rather the atmosphere).

And most people will at least agree, that we arent helping warming trends at all.

Also, LOL Jim. I hear Florida is the cause, and solution to some american problems

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:35 am

What's the plan when sea levels rise another 10 feet?

Desalination plants = irrigation water for dry interior plateau

EDIT:
Here's the UK's "make it a contest" solution:
http://www.climateweek.com/awards/

Barb

andym · Post by **andym** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:03 pm

So it looks like fracking isn't 100% safe

It looks like another battle between the greens and the fracking movement over here. There is certainly a public revolt gaining ground regarding the imposition of Wind Turbines here.
There appears to be a blinding belief by our brain washed politicians that the Turbines can replace fossil fuel power stations, many of which are due to be decommissioned by orders of the EU. However someone didn't tell them that they would have to build more gas powered stations as a back up for when the wind stops blowing

Such is life.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:31 am

114-page Study just released "Impacts of Climate Change":

http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports ... Report.pdf

public revolt gaining ground regarding the imposition of Wind Turbines here.

I've heard that complaints in Scotland ended as soon as everyone was offered a new TV from the wind turbine companies.

Newer PN members may not know that I installed a 10kW wind turbine on my place a few years ago.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/3644294504/" title="DSC02654 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2424/3644 ... 8db6_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC02654"></a>

Based on its production numbers (despite the manufacturer's and installer's claims), it amortizes out to about 250 years

But it feels good to have it.
As I load another log into the woodstove...

Barb

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:56 am

Another one:

Fracking to blame for well blow-out: http://northerninsights.blogspot.ca/201 ... mment-form

Seems mankind's intent on destroying "down below", after we've done quite the job on the surface.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:44 pm

Right on Barb

There was once a man who came to town here.....

his name was Maharshi Mahesh Yogi and he said that one day palms would grow here.

I feel this is already come true-just look at my yard

he was talking big picture though...I think.

He also said that there is a special place in hell for these people,I hope that is true,all to often I want to send them there myself.....

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:30 pm

It's the loss of control to protect the land and creatures for everyday ordinary people like us that has been lost.
That is, if we ever had it.

We can stand on the street and protest all we want...the power-brokers simply give us lip service.
And then continue what they were doing.
I rarely even watch the news anymore.

"Public hearing closed," they say, and that's the end of our input.
Decisions between industry and government had already been made.
Presto...leaky pipeline in place.

It's things like Monsanto suing a little old farmer in Saskatchewan because HIS non-GMO crop was contaminating THEIR GMO crop!!!

Glad Mr. Yogi had some impact with his palm forecast, Jim

if his predictions come to pass, you'll have started it in Iowa.
Attaboy.

Barb

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:32 am

Barb....

Is that all your property?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 am

Property ends at about 300 feet up the hill from the turbine...
which is a good thing, 'coz the slope is almost vertical beyond that

Makes for some interesting avalanches.

Our mule deer have shorter legs on the uphill side

Barb

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:40 pm

hardyjim wrote: He also said that there is a special place in hell for these people

What people was he talking about, people that use natural? Or the people that have natural gas shares, like so many in this country with retirements?

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:54 pm

cool turbine Barb! So that's how you keep all those plants warm in winter!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:29 pm

DesertZone wrote:
hardyjim wrote: He also said that there is a special place in hell for these people
What people was he talking about, people that use natural? Or the people that have natural gas shares, like so many in this country with retirements?

The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:21 am

hardyjim wrote:
DesertZone wrote:
hardyjim wrote: He also said that there is a special place in hell for these people
What people was he talking about, people that use natural? Or the people that have natural gas shares, like so many in this country with retirements?

The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life.

or the environment, which pretty much means human life, and that which sustains it.......

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:42 am

canadianplant wrote:
hardyjim wrote:
DesertZone wrote: What people was he talking about, people that use natural? Or the people that have natural gas shares, like so many in this country with retirements?

The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life.

or the environment, which pretty much means human life, and that which sustains it.......

Same thing

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:23 am

I apparently missed some of this thread.....

You should have seen the S--- show here over wind turbines. The city wanted to put them on the flat topped mesa that surround the city, which so happens to be the best realty in town, best views, and houses a whole host of animal species like hawks, eagles and falcons. People flipped out and wanted it moved. The city went ahead with it anyways, and it turns out, that the people resisting the wind farm, actually won. The only problem is, now the company sued the city and won a 300 million dollar lawsuit.

The real problem with turbines, is the municipality's lack of public inquiry (or listening too), and a public misunderstanding of the politics involved.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:08 am

hardyjim wrote:
The kind of people who place a higher value on material items then they do on human life.

The sad thing is without prosperity, people will also starve and live in very horrid conditions. No one wants to see pollution, drilling, wild lands developed for farming etc, but with over 6 billion people on this earth we can't just go back to the stone ages.

Who realy puts the price/value on material things? Well it is the consumer, we all buy crap we don't need, burn gas we don't have too, fly to far places just to rest. Buy vegetables we could grow in our own back yards. Live in homes that are much bigger than is realy needed for survival, by the way our homes are some of the biggest comsumers of our resources.
This is not all bad, I don't see people fighting to head for comunist countries where most people have very little, besides it that realy better.

So easy to point fingers, rather than stop using our much loved material things. Saving the planted starts at home, not at our neighbors.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:42 am

Aaron,
Couldn't agree more...

I know people who would be LOST if they couldn't buy paper towels. .
Whatever happened to cutting up old sheets and having a "rag box".
Prosperity...if that's what it's called.

My elderly Mom calls it laziness and waste.

Barb

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:07 pm

And after the horrendous event in Connecticut yesterday, I'd trade prosperity for only PEACE.

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:49 pm

lucky1 wrote:And after the horrendous event in Connecticut yesterday, I'd trade prosperity for only PEACE.

Yes, that was such a horrid event.

In some ways peace is prosperity. I think when people have prosperity, a purpose in life, the stride of achievment, a dream/future, they are less likely to do such things.
Herd people around like cattle, take thier freedom away and show them a life of guilt and control, soon life feels bleak and dispair will soon overrun all.

Places where the people do better finacially, it has been shown that they have less children, less crime, more parks, cleaner enviroments. I don't care how many childern people have, but I put that in there too show that thery are less likely too over populate the world.

That does not mean everyone needs to be rich too achieve this goal, all the have to do is stide for a goal in life, family, work community.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:57 pm

Meaningful employment (not minimum wage) creates well-being that you can feed your family and pay your bills.
If there's a bit of money left over at the end of the month, that's good.
But many folks have month left over.
That's a downward spiral that never stops.

A strong family unit is paramount too...decency, respect and dignity are learned by youngsters from their parents and grandparents.
That is, IF they learned it from their elders.

And because it feels so darn good to help others, volunteer and help wherever you can.
I love the "pay it forward" concept, despite it being a bit cheesy when it's discussed in the media.

As to number of children, agree with you entirely!
We had only one and I cannot imagine what it's like to have 5 or 6 kids.

I should probably omit this, but H has a theory (tongue-in-cheek): "there's nothing else to do in poverty-stricken countries".

Education, education, education helps people to care for themselves.
And that doesn't mean everyone has to go to university.
But simply to cultivate an ability to learn...about anything, so people can be their own resource.

I've never liked the idea of asking anything of government.
There's too high a price for receiving it...loss of freedom comes to mind.

Barb

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:31 pm

lucky1 wrote:I've never liked the idea of asking anything of government.
There's too high a price for receiving it...loss of freedom comes to mind.

Barb

You write so very well.

PalmsNorth.com

Future prosperity for America?

Future prosperity for America?

Re: Future prosperity for America?