Palms after -30 C (note: lots of pics)

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:09 pm

Sorry for starting a new thread. I wasn’t sure if these photos should follow “see ‘em while they are still green” or “oklahoma colder than the south pole this morning” so think of this thread as the continuation of both of those.

After a mild morning of just 21 F, we quickly warmed up to 55 F (13 C). Snow melted. I was able to get to many of the palms. I unwrapped those to let warm dry air get to trunks, spears and leaves. I plan to spray fungicide on them in an hour. no spear pull yet, but I want to be ready.

Photo 1 summary of minimum temps Thursday morning; -22 F = -30 C
Photo 2 palm hut with icicles; the one in the middle is 66 cm long
Photo 3 Sabal “Louisiana” foliage. It had heat tape at the base, was covered in a meter of fresh loose hay and was enclosed in a crude “palm hut.”
Photo 4 Brahea armata and Chameadorea radicalis leaves in the palm hut
Photo 5 Needle palm foliage. Crude palm hut filled with hay but no electric heat
Photo 6 Smallest Waggie. It has a rather hot heat tape wrapped around the base and a water bottle, was wrapped in hay, and under a foam bucket and buried in snow.
Photo 7 Butia (avatar) protected like the Waggie above, but instead of the foam bucket it was swaddled in fiberglass insulation and covered by a 32 gallon trash can
Photo 8 Larger Waggie. It has a rather hot heat tape wrapped around the base and a water bottle, was wrapped in hay, covered in fiberglass insulation and under a plastic “teepee.”
Photo 9 Larger Trachycarpus fortunei--the one that suffered so badly last winter. Packed in hay, swaddled in fiberglass insulation and under a trash can but no electric heat.
Photo 10 One of two smaller Trachy planted in 2010. Packed with hay, under fiberglass in a plastic “teepee” (excuse the dog). Another of the same size was protected the same and looks comparable.
Photo 11 Sabal mexicana (one of two). Electric heat tape around base, water bottles, packed in hay, fiberglass insulation and in a plastic teepee.

Thanks for looking!

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Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:41 pm

Erik- Thanks for posting this. I assume the temps have rebounded (since your temp bar now reads 14C) so the damage should be showing up... Looks to me like there is some damage on everything. Have you treated the crowns with fungicide?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:44 pm

My gut feeling:

Hay was wayyyyyyy too loose, allowing cold to penetrate. Could be packed thicker, tighter, using a lot more hay.
Folks who use hay bales (Don) have good success but I know your hay is round bales...tougher to stack segments tightly.
"Swaddled" fiberglass insulation then likely too loose as well.

Plastic--even 6ml--not sufficient protection, garbage cans/plant pots likely producing the same results.
At a minimum, consider a second larger teepee over each teepee, providing at least an inch of air space between two plastic layers.

Where survival chances are good, heat and a more robust structure were provided.

Water bottles have virtually no benefit with such low temps unless supplementary heat is provided.

I really hope, for your sake Erik, that I have to eat crow when they all bounce back in spring.

Barb

Dean W. · Post by **Dean W.** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Erik, I'm wishing you the best of luck. It looks as though you all got hit with some really low weather for your area. Hopefully it's just the fronds and not much more.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:59 pm

Anything without heat/that wasn't completely insulated is ready for butter and jam

By this time next week you should should have a handle
(if the handles haven't come off!) on the extent of damage-
warmer temps will speed up damages effects.

I would suggest moving any mulch and protection away from them as
soon as warmer temps make that possible-the faster the soil warms back up
and they are in the open the faster any recovery will be.

That's a tough pill to swallow when you have zone defining/busting cold
like that-pretty amazing how fast it came and went,I can remember weeks of temps
below 20(F) and many nights with below zero(F) temps.

I think we only went 3-4 nights below zero(F) this winter,with none being back to back.

The duration of the cold was another story.

Good luck Erik!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:20 am

Jeez, don't real know what to say other then Sorry Man

Bill

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:19 am

Everyone, thanks for looking.

Paul,
I sprayed fungicide. I used chlorothonil (sp?) (tradename fungi onil). I have the copper stuff around but did not use it after Bill and gpenny warned against it. Any more thoughts on copper fungicides? If anyone suggests it, I'll give it a shot.

Barb,
(somewhat defensively!) the hay was not as loose as pictured; I took the photos after pulling the hay away to let sun and warm dry air into palm tissue. But your broader point is well taken.
January was freaky warm, and it has been since 1996 that our winter low was in February. So, in late January I unwrapped palms. We set a record high high for the date on the last Saturday in January. We all napped in tank tops on the “beach” and celebrated the end of winter listening to Jimmy Buffet by the palms.
Sunday, I saw forecasts for one more week of winter with lows in the single digits and snow. So, I wrapped everything back up on this assumption: zone 7a conditions lasting a week. I used a bunch of water bottles to buffer temp swings, and plastic (4 mil) to shed snow--not as insulation.
That is what we got. But instead of a warm-up, the forecasts then called for another week of zone 7. I figured I was good, and did not want to unwrap palms and let cold air in. I devoted my time to animals, which needed a lot of care in the cold.
Even the night before the super cold, the local meteorologists did not know how bad it would get. Most were calling for zone 6b; the scariest called for zone 6a. But my time was spent on animals, and I had already hurt my lower back and my right hip in slips and falls hauling endless buckets of warm water from the house to 100 animals in the barns. Palms would just have to deal with zone 6a/6b as best as they could.

As for eating crow, don’t do that. I kept all of my chickens alive, albeit some with frostbite. Wouldn’t coq au vin be tastier?

Dean,
thanks for the best wishes. The Mrs. and I are looking Texas. An experienced Tulsa palm grower advised me,”south of Austin”! What do you think?

Jim,
I agree. The unheated Trachy have little chance. I’ll try your trunk-cutting tricks, but honestly it is mostly so I learn the techniques for the future. When I get ready to do that I’ll PM you for a telephone number for detailed instructions.

I’ve moved mulch away to let warm dry air in. The snow is melting fast (but there is a lot left) so all is wet.

Again, thanks, everyone. Since joining “palmsnorth” Tulsa has had all of its recorded blizzards and all record snowfalls and cold. Is that how you welcome folks?

Dean W. · Post by **Dean W.** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:13 am

Hey Erik, thinking of moving? South of Austin is okay I guess maybe down by the coast or south Texas.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:48 pm

local meteorologists did not know how bad it would get.

I remember reading how surprised several were at how cold it did get.
"lifetime cold event" was a phrase I saw a couple of times.

You made the right choice, Erik, in dealing with the animals.

Since joining “palmsnorth” Tulsa has had all of its recorded blizzards and all record snowfalls and cold. Is that how you welcome folks?

Barb

Cameron_z6a_N.S. · Post by **Cameron_z6a_N.S.** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:35 pm

hopefully some pull through for you!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:12 pm

Hey Erik,
I'm sure at some point I wrote to you that copper fungicide can be toxic to your plants as did Penny. I think the point we where trying to get across was not to Over Use it. Copper fungicide is a very appropriate product to use in a situation like yours now. Your palms could be in some serious trouble if pathogens start building with all of the heat down there.

If I remember back I think you where definitely overusing it at the time.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:06 pm

I agree with Bill.....

and would add that although peroxide works great as well...
copper is a very useful product when it comes to helping
keep the crown dry-when pouring liquid in there doesn't feel right.

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:17 pm

I'm sorry Erik. Hopefully some of them make it and then you'll know you have really hardy palms.

Next year, please consider building poly enclosures with foam insulation on the outside. Throw a space heater in set at 40F and you'll be set. I do HVAC for a living, so I ran heat calcs on my enclosures and it would have to be -60F outside for the enclosure to fall below 32F with just a space heater.

If you need any help or advice, just let me know.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:49 pm

I honestly nver would have thought that you could get that cold there! I really hope your plants pull through. I would definatly listen to the vets around here with there suggestions...

igor.glukhovtsev · Post by **igor.glukhovtsev** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:51 am

Eric, I know it's so bad! Sorry, man! I read all these comments but would not able viewing the pictures. Something wrong with my picasaweb (or with the antivirus)...

But it's nothing comparing what you feel... Hope my spring smile will help you overcome.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:01 pm

Hey Igor, thanks for posting that nice picture!
That would brighten anyone's day...

You can't see ANY photos on PN??? or just on this post?
Barb

igor.glukhovtsev · Post by **igor.glukhovtsev** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:19 pm

lucky1 wrote: You can't see ANY photos on PN??? or just on this post? Barb

Surprisingly started seeing the Eric's pictures this morning. That is cool! Oh, sorry Barb, I were not able seeing Eric's pictures only. Now it's over!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:28 pm

Igor, good that it's fixed now.

Oh, have to tell you of this morning's short feature on the Weather Channel with a couple of pics of Almaty, Kazakhstan's Falconry event last weekend.
Lovely photos in bright sunshine of people with their falcons. Lots of snow!
The tradition apparently goes back 3,000 years.

3,000 years...wow.

The oldest thing in Western Canada is a Midas muffler shop.

Barb

igor.glukhovtsev · Post by **igor.glukhovtsev** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:40 pm

lucky1 wrote:Igor, good that it's fixed now.

Oh, have to tell you of this morning's short feature on the Weather Channel with a couple of pics of Almaty, Kazakhstan's Falconry event last weekend.
Lovely photos in bright sunshine of people with their falcons. Barb

Barb, actually the Kazakh nomads use a golden eagle as a hunting bird. I'm not the Kazakh but used to hold the eagle on my hand once many-many years ago...

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:31 pm

Nice horse!

The bird is amazing, too.

Okanagan desert-palms · Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:59 pm

Erik so sorry to hear about the record cold and snow your palms got. It looks like it got even colder just to the north east of you. You were right in your protection that you did. With your normal winter temps it would have protected those palms no problem. The backup plan here for such an event would be ceramic,space heaters? Our normal winter cold events are usualy not near as cold as what you experienced nor the snow. Usually arctic freeze events of-12c to -15c Dec,Jan,Feb. Mid Okanagan Valley.
I think you will still see some of them pull through. I am of the thinking Hydrogen peroxide "proper dilution"is better as a fungicide than the copper fungicide . Try one of each on different palms of the same palm sp. to see wich works best?

John

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:56 am

Igor, wow, massive bird, intimidating! Thanks for the pic.

Erik, the bright side--and there is one--is that you didn't have 2 months of brutal cold, so there IS hope.

Jubaea · Post by **Jubaea** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:48 pm

Erik I can't imagine dealing with temperatures that cold and the extreme fluctuations and you just live 1 degree of latitude higher than me. I see that it is 70 degrees in your signature right now. I hope you have some surprises and see some palms leafing out when it warms up.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:57 pm

It has been--and usually is around here--a wild ride.
Look at this meteogram from just now. It shows the lows of -20 F a few days ago and how no we are above 60 F, with lows above freezing (grey line).
All palms are uncovered with mulch pulled off, and all have had the chlorothanil (sp?) AND copper fungicide sprayed so it will run down into the crown. (Well, all except the big Sabal palmetto but I gave up on it weeks ago.)
All I'm doing now is waiting. Any other advice? --Erik

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G ... site"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_r-Mv ... eogram.JPG" height="312" width="738" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm ... ">February 2011</a></td></tr></table>

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:26 pm

I pulled the mulch away from the base of that big Sabal palmetto. Surprisingly, the petiole bases are still green.

The two Sabal mexicana are also green at the base. So, while not likely, maybe a chance. Recall all had the pipe heating cable around the base and spear.

I have not mentioned the Chammie as I did not want to jinx myself but it looks great. Recall it had C9 lights (an entire string) on a thermocube in addition to the pipe heat tape on the trunk (such as it is) and everything else (hay, fiberglass, plastic). It was my experiment. I may be horribly disappointed in a week, but as of now I love thermocube/C9 lights for foliage protection.

Jesse, the three Chameadorea radicalis in the ground in the heated palm hut look awful.

I would love to have good news there, and given a miracle I will, but not yet.
The miracle would be re-growth from the ground. Potted Brahea in there look better, which says something.

--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:57 pm

Erik, that's encouraging!

I'm hoping that pipe heating cable did the job, and also the C-9s with the thermocube since you moved it to a more appropriate spot.

Warm soil will be the chief factor now.
Barb

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:50 pm

Hope your palms pull through......those are some crazy cold temps for your area. Please update us on what survives.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:01 pm

Thanks, folks.
I will keep reporting. I am trying to see what happened a week ago as a crazy experiment, like red-lining your car's tachometer.
It is very warm now, which will accelerate the process.

Now for the awkward thing.
A while back, I agreed to give a talk to a local garden club about how to grow palms here. I wrote the powerpoint show weeks ago. I am due to give it tomorrow night.
I so want to say, "no, seriously, palms won't grow here!" and leave after a minute. But I won't--I'll do my best, showing heat tape, thermocubes, C9 lights and all. Wish me luck, or just laugh at me.

--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:57 pm

I agreed to give a talk to a local garden club about how to grow palms here.

Good for you Erik, maybe you should start up a small nursery and supply folks, not having to overwinter potted plants because they're sold.

By the way, did you ever find out the name of the "ailing" palm planted under the low glass ceiling GH at the zoo? (or?)

Hope somebody tapes your presentation; would like to see it.
Good luck!

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:09 pm

Barb,
thanks!
This link gives a talk summary:
http://tulsaperennialclub.com/default.aspx
I didn't write the copy, but if you read between the lines palms seem to be classified as "annuals" which lately seems accurate.

My unheated (but protected) Sabal minor may well make it so I plan to suggest them. If I had to guess, I'd say needle palm pups will also pull through, also without heat.
But I think I will push electric heat for folks who want any palm in the ground. And trunkless species. I know those aren't your favorites, but I appreciate them lately.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:38 pm

Cool, nice intro!
Don't forget to suggest they can also pot palms (and this is where trunking palms are so nice) because they can be brought indoors to be enjoyed all winter long near a sunny window. = success year after year without banging down your door in February for help!

Speaking of sunny window, have you been hauling your Bizzie in and out during nice warm days?

Yup, trunkless...can't get my head around those, but you're right.
A needle would make it there because you wont' have another -30C winter.
Maybe I just like trunks, regardless of what's growing atop

But remind them young sabals need some shade for the first few years.

annual palms

that's funny.
Barb

PalmsNorth.com

Palms after -30 C (note: lots of pics)

Palms after -30 C (note: lots of pics)

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