Seeds vs plants

[canadianplant]

So what kind of aloe is that jim? From that pic it looks like plain ole aloe vera.

[ROBRETI]

Erik,

About 25 years ago, I made my thesis on the cold/winter hardiness. At that time, there was a research centre in North Japan, on Hokkaido that performed extensive studies in cold hardiness and in the related plant physiology. What they did was that they gradually decreased the temperature in the plants' enviromnets and observed the tissue reaction. They had hundreds of plants involved and the results were amazing! This is the research centre that provided most data on the supercooling of Rhododendrons, suggested trying out exotics like Firminiana for zone 7, gave a lot of insights into the evregreens' reactions to cold (e.g. 2 exotherm reactions down the drain, extracellular ice formation, etc...) If I remember well, the professor's name was Dr Sakai.

Good luck with your research!
Rob

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, Rob.
I'm pretty busy right now, but hope to devote time to library work on cold-tolerance palms in January. If anyone else is interested, we can have a thread for our reading. I have made a little time and am finding some interesting snippets of stuff on gene expression. It seems to support Jim's hypothesis that some early exposure to cold prepares a palm for worse later, but I need to make time to read more. That will be in a while. I just put in another 15 hours day at work, have another tomorrow, and yet need to get some garden work in before a possible/likely first hard freeze Saturday morning. I have been busy/foolish and so have stuff like Hibiscus rosa-sinensis still in the ground....
--Erik
P.S. about Firmiana--does anyone here grow that? I have a friend who does around here and it does great for him. Never available for sale, but he will give me "volunteers." Hey, just trying to get back to CP's original point on this thread...

[canadianplant]

Dont worry eric, I think all this needed to be said. Im really pushing the limits here and this information has actualy helped me out quite a bit, and hopefuly everyone else.

Ive never seent that tree before.... Your referencing the parasol tree? People say its gros int he following areas:
Elizabeth City, North Carolina
Dayton, Ohio
Norman, Oklahoma
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Stillwater, Oklahoma
Florence, South Carolina
Arlington, Tennessee
Pocahontas, Tennessee
Austin, Texas

And yes, we shoudl create a thread about physiological and acclimitive adaptaions in palms/plants........

[Paul Ont]

Erik- I planted one out a few years ago. It was small and made it to, perhaps, December. I have another that I'm growing indoors... I don't mean to be negative here, but, from what I've seen it's a nice tree, however, it'd nothing to write home about.

I think you could grow it no problem down there! It'll give you an opportunity to show me that I'm wrong.

[igor.glukhovtsev]

I understand the Chinese Parasol is not a cold hardy palm but if you've touch it... I've got a two years seedling of this tree a few weeks ago. Unlikely if it would be able survive here in Almaty but I'll try. Here is a picture from the Dave's Garden:


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[hardyjim]

So what kind of aloe is that jim? From that pic it looks like plain ole aloe vera.

Yea,it is Aloe Vera.

Hardiness ratings of plants are notoriously to high with regard to minimum temps.
I think I mentioned,Aloe Vera is said to be hardy to 40f.

My neighbor was kind enough(unwittingly )to leaves theirs out on their porch.

I took pictures of theirs and the ones I have.

We just finished a 10hr stretch below freezing,the official low was 23f(-9c)

In another post-
I will post some pics of their Aloe and mine after the sun beats down on
them for a while longer,as well as my Washys,Tetrapanex and S.Louisiana-

[TerdalFarm]

Sorry for the thread hijacking but since you're ok with it...
Firmiana is someimtes confused with Paulownia.
Here is a Duke website with some photos:
http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/fisi.html
I think it looks tropical, and I like that the bark stays green in winter.
The one I know of here is fairly tall and the seeds germinate and have to be pulled; it is one of those I want. It provides shade for a bed with needle palms and Sabal minor, Photunei, Euonymous, Punica, Ficus carica, etc. I was thinking of planting one north of my gazebo to provide Summer shade for Trachycarpus. Downside is leaves blowing into the pool in Autumn....

[canadianplant]

A friend is sending me some paulownia seeds. Hardy to zone 3 or 4, one of, if not the fastes growing tree ( balsa can grow 12 feet in a few months, while paulo can grow 15 feet in a year). Paulo trees look really really tropical. They cn get 60 feet but if you cut then down to half the hight, they will regrow, with HUGE leaves. The only thing is, if you do that, im not sure if the tree will bloom.. ( im assuming it blooms on old wood in the spring).

As for the parasol tres.... i dont have much to add.

Paul it isnt highjaking if its allowed:P

[Paul Ont]

Paulownia I do like. Mine dies to the ground each winter. I'm still waiting for the HUGE leaves, however. It does bloom on old wood, and, if I recall correctly, my friend who has a tree sized one in St. Thomas ON said it only blooms after winters that are above 0f (-18C).

[igor.glukhovtsev]

Keep your Paulownia growing as the perennial. This is the best way getting LARGE leaves from this spectacular tree in the ZONE we are growing this species. We won't make it to be flourishing tree in the climate we live. Otherwise keep it protected as your "Palms" are.

[canadianplant]

Paul, i was goign to try this with my eucs next year to get some better size. Protec emliek basjoo stems:

Use pipe foam to wrap the stem, or mabey some leves to about 3 feet of trunk hight. Im suprised it isnt full on hardy there, most sources say its hardy to zone 4. If im not mistakin, theres some in regina........

[Paul Ont]

Jesse- I often see it rated to the warmer parts of zone 5. This has not been my experience, but I've only got 1 planted and it was planted a seedling (maybe 1 foot high). It is certainly possible that there would be variation among individuals (mine was grown from seeds produced by the St. Thomas, ON tree in the rare year that it flowered).

Regina? Are you sure? As a tree, or a die-back perennial? Do you have a link?

[canadianplant]

Hmmm, i cant seem to find the link. I seen it a few weeks ago, looking things up. The only tree i can think of, that i was looking up in the past month was paulownia. I could be wrong ( i could be confusing it with the russian olive, but i havnt looked that up in months....)

Ill keep lookin. But hearing what you are saying, i doubt thats the tree im talking about.

[canadianplant]

This is what i can find....

" It occurs from Montreal, Canada, south to Florida and west to Texas and Indiana"
http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plan ... m/all.html

The odds are im thinkin of someting else.. still montreal isnt much warmer then kingston, and im pretty sure toronto is as warm or warmer then montreal.

[Paul Ont]

Yup. Montreal city proper is borderline zone 5a. It is only slightly cooler than Kingston long-term, similar to my location just outside Kingston. Toronto downtown is zone 6a (long-term it is moving rapidly toward 6b).

I have no doubt that it could be used as a die-back perennial in Montreal, and maybe damaged specimens can adapt to more cold than they would normally.

Here's an excerpt from later in the same article. I think that mature trees can handle temperatures below -25C based on what I know about where they can be found, but having no experience with a mature one, firsthand, I can't say definitely.

"Climate: Cold climates may limit princesstree's establishment and spread. Early and late frosts and minimum winter temperatures apparently limit princesstree's establishment and spread in the United States [43,70,98,127,158]. In China, princesstree occurs south of the 32 °F (0 °C) isotherm [62,63] in areas that receive mean annual rainfall from 20 to 120 inches (500-3,000 mm) [37]. In the United States, it is typically not invasive in regions where temperatures drop below 32 °F (0 °C) for long periods [38,63,95,126]. USDA hardiness zones 7 to 10, where average annual minimum temperatures range from 0 to 40 °F (-18 to 4 °C) [72], are considered most favorable for princesstree [10].

When fully dormant, mature princesstrees can withstand temperatures as low as -13 °F (-25 °C), but individual plants are more susceptible to frost damage when actively growing or young and are damaged by 14 °F (-10 °C) or lower temperatures [37]. Damage to seeds by low temperatures is unknown, but seeds can be dry-stored at -4 °F (-20 °C) without losing viability [114]. Princesstree may be top-killed by low temperatures [13,37,48,81,98,126]. Following damage by cold, plants typically sprout [13,37,98,126]. In some cases flower buds are damaged by extreme cold, as observed by Braun [19] in Ohio. Thus, the reproductive potential of an individual can be greatly limited in cold climates even if individual trees survive. Predicted climate change might result in princesstree spreading beyond its current distribution, pushing altitudinal limits upwards and latitudinal limits northward of its current range [118]."

[Paul Ont]

Here is a research article on the subject:

http://www.gpsaf.unl.edu/GPPubs/Paulwonia.pdf

Really interesting stuff. FYI The sites they used ranged from zone 5 (Northern sites) to zone 6 (Southern sites).

[canadianplant]

It seems to go back to the conversation about a slow n steady drop to freezing temps, as oppoed to an instant hard freeze.

That article stated that dry hot summers also affected mortality rate. Maybe due to our higher rainfall, theyll have a better survival rate. The only real way to try this out is to plant a few of em.

Once again, i guess the only thing to do is try right?
Thanks again for the help paul

[TerdalFarm]

Good Paulownia article, Paul. Let'd keep up the habit of finding and sharing these.

My climate is much like those in this trial just to the north.
I do have to remember that the local Firmiana I like is in a good microclimate, whereas mine is bad.

[canadianplant]

You can always make the micro climate you need with barriers or more plants !! ( yes im trying to feed your need for more plants )