Damage to Trachys,etc, from prolonged cold

[BILL MA]

Hey Guys,
Interesting post Jim. Glad everything is rebounding nicely since the original cold blast.

Corrosion,
Your trachy looks fine to me. You may have some leaf damage later on but all and all
you should have a positive growth year this summer. leave all the leaves on as long
as you can even into the growing season which I'm sure you already know. One of
mine was really damaged one year and came back really fast once I gave it fertilizer
in mid to late April. Welcome Aboard!

Bill

[lucky1]

If corrosion's Trachy is dying, then this Nainital must be dying too, because I see no difference between the two.



Barb

[TerdalFarm]

I must be a hopeless optimist, because both corrosion and Barb's Trachy's look much better then my outdoors-for-its-first-winter Trachy (which was exposed to Tulsa's first ever blizzard, in case you forgot). I am confident mine will make it. It has gotten copper fungicide and reliable rain protection. It will look terrible come spring, but I'm hopeful. --Erik

[Corrosion]

I couldn´t resist and moved temporarily the cover today. Nothing new was discovered, the trunk and petioles are still solid. The spear is green and didn´t pull, guess I wasn´t pulling too hard? But as far I remember the leaves looked crappy already in fall, they were bent badly, brown spots on leaves due wet weather and so on. Now it is only the freeze curl look which adds the final touch..If I will be able to keep it dry til spring there wont be any rot or fungy I hope. Who would have ever guess that I would worry about a tree that much

[Paul Ont]

Jim- Sorry to hear about you largest Trachy. You know as well as I that it 'should' recover come spring...

Corrosion and Barb- Corr- Your palm looks fried. I maintain the same position. Barb- Your nainial fortunei is fine. The leaves are a healthy green, but have folded a little, either due to drought or prolonged exposure to cold. Is the soil frozen at all? Otherwise it is 100% fine.

A couple of pics to illustrate the difference:
Needle palm foliage showing freeze-dried dead foliage (lighter colour) and healthy tissue (brighter green). The difference becomes more obvious with time.
<a href="http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/20 ... NJuR"><img src="http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/3296/ ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="florida07andcactussprng08 027"></a>

Same thing on a larger needle palm:
<a href="http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2822 ... LOBD"><img src="http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/8363/ ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0926"></a>

The damamge is more obvious in the second picture, with 'freeze-dried', aka lethal freeze damage easily distinguished from the healthy tissue. The unfortunate thing about that palm was that when the spear pulled the main stem died (needle palm is not as good at recovery as Trachycarpus) but the suckers live on...

[lucky1]

leaves are a healthy green, but have folded a little, either due to drought or prolonged exposure to cold. Is the soil frozen at all?

The "healthy green" T. nainital leaves faded to lighter green, drier (shredded) appearance, after removing the plastic garbage can as temps neared 0C.

Soil was frozen, ~no/little snow this year.
No heat provided.
No wind exposure.
Min. -20.6C -5F on Dec.14
approx -8C when applying FreezePruf.

Leaf area after FreezePruf:




Barb

[hardyjim]

Barb your leaf right next to the spear is right on the edge and is probably damaged beyond return.
Keep a close watch on that leaf(the one next to the spear)it is a good indicator of the health of the growth point.
If it starts to dry up you may want to give it a little tug,however even if it pulls the rest of the palm is in great
shape so no worries,at most you would lose it and the spear but lets not rush to judgment on that yet.
Besides the one leaf the palm is in great shape.

Another example-remember this picture?
Count out from the middle,the newest spear,the one starting to open at 9 0'clock and the bigger one at 11 0'clock
all pulled yesterday.The leaf at 11:00 is an indictor of the spears health,you can see it's burned/closed beyond the border where
the blades reconnect,these never reopened and went downhill.This was a clear indication the spear was cut off from nutrients.
All that is left is a giant cavity,if you lose leaves from this point you know the infection/rot is moving south.
At this point you keep a close eye on the health of the next leaves down the line and wait,wait wait until spring if your a lucky1.

This damage most likely happened right after December 1 when our weather went from mild (Oct/Nov-Dec 1st 61f)to
below freezing with no acclimatization at all for these plants.Early Arctic cold in January finished the job.
The sad thing is these palms can handle the cold now since they have had time to adjust-)-:




<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10010.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10010.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[BILL MA]

That really stinks Jim. I thought things were looking more on the positive side.

Bill

[hardyjim]

Another uncle killing heartbreaker for sure!
The rest of the palm is green so we'll see what happens in spring,
which Fortunei-ately is just around the corner!

[TerdalFarm]

Darn.
I'll add photos of my Trachy when I have the heart to do it. --Erik

[lucky1]

Yes, I remember that picture.
Oh no, those two pulled?

But they did look so good (for a while).

One thing I read about somewhere is that palm fronds that exhibit that "accordion folding" almost-stunted waviness of the younger spear had something to do with nutrient deficiency. I don't recall if it was related to the common phrase "frizzle top" when referring to Florida's LY-palms.
I'll find it again and send it.

Thanks for explaining that Jim.

I was under the impression the hastula had to be a lemon yellow "halo" to stop nutrient movement (re the 11 o'clock spear).
It didn't look bad at all to me!

Fortunei-ately is just around the corner!

well said.

[hardyjim]

I know how you feel Erik


Barb
The lighter color is indicative of a leaf cut off from it's nutrient supply in this case.

The yellow ring is from those pictures that John commented on,yes improper carb/sugar distribution in the old leaf.


Hopefully this takes you there-

http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/top ... picid=2435





Thanks Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Jim,
the link took me there once I signed in.
We have never-ending light and cold rain so I'm keeping the poor Trachy as protected as possible. I have a funnel (with stopper) over the spear, an arm-load of loose hay, then a 20 gallon bucket upside down and supported by stakes to protect the crown from cold and rain. The hay has stayed dry, thank goodness; the cold rain just won't stop. When it does I'll replace the hay with fresh hay. As for now, I am confident the tree will survive but without most/all leaves. No basis for that optimism
--Erik

[lucky1]

Yes got it thanks, Jim.
That's the picture I remember.

Erik, good stop-gap measure.
And good timing.
If the hay's dry, no need to replace it.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if--in May--we're all laughing because they ALL survived.
Here we are fussing like old hens and...roosters

[hardyjim]

Erik
We had that weather right after the brutal cold of early January,
something like 2 weeks of cold ,cloudy(no sun!),foggy weather-ending with an ice storm.

[TerdalFarm]

Barb, thanks for the encouragement. February always seems like the longest month. My hens and roosters are totally dependent on bagged feed but they roam all over the garden hoping for some "real" food. To them, that means bugs. No luck.
Jim, fun to "see" you in "Europe" overnight (Paul, too).
No rain today so I took buckets off to let moisture out. The hay on the Trachy crown + all over small Butia and Ch. humilis is dry and so will be out in the cool north winds for the afternoon to stay dry.
Tomorrow we're back to cold rain relieved only by "warm" snow. No end in sight.

I'm keeping the south flap on the large Butia hut (AKA heated dog house) open today. Fronds look good to me, except where they were in contact with the plastic walls where they look as good as you imagine (i.e., dry and brown).
--Erik

[hardyjim]

Yep-you to Erik
Forecasting 6-10" of snow here- winter not going away anytime soon!

[TerdalFarm]

We have a forecast of 4" - 5" of snow for tomorrow. Lows only in the mid-teens, though, the next couple of nights.
There is still a bit of green on the exposed Trachy leaves. Not too bad given what they've been through the past six weeks.
I haven't uncovered the crown to tug the spear lately so I'm just hoping it'll make it to Spring.
I had fun reading the EPS forum today to get a different perspective. --Erik

[lucky1]

a different perspective

Why? Because their palms are alive?
Barb

[hardyjim]

They have been hit hard there,lost lots'o palms!

[lucky1]

Oh, poop

EPS registration--and re-registration--went awry.
Gave up.

Barb

[Corrosion]

Trachy update. I removed the cover today and noticed that the heating cable has turned black in some points Perhaps it has heated the crown too much to cause yellowing in the spear? The spear was really dry and but still strong so the overheating could have been the problem.. Anyway here are the pics:

[BILL MA]

I still think it will survive. Hopefully your weather doesn't get to cold before winters over, and spring gets here quickly.

What temperature are your thermostats set to on your heat cables? That's strange they turned black like that they must
have overheated by being crossed but who knows?

Good luck and keep us posted

Bill

[lucky1]

Corrosion, I don't think that's a heat tape in that last picture, more likely a "rope light", which uses LED technology, producing little if any heat.

Heat tapes, intended for wrapping around (or along) exposed-to-cold copper water pipes, look like this:

http://www.easyheat.com/pipe_tracing.htm

Whereas rope lights are decorative and have other uses, but heat isn't one of them. See this link:

http://www.birddogdistributing.com/rope ... awoddkTqcQ

I may be wrong, corrosion, but looks like wrong product to wrap around your palm.
Barb

[hardyjim]

You can certainly use rope lights to warm a modest sized palm BUT you need to greatly reduce
the size of the area your trying to heat and monitor very closely the temp at the spear.

[lucky1]

Jim, you think those rope lights produce heat?
I have one on a railing at Christmas, never even gets warm.

Barb

[Corrosion]

Hmm maybe you guys in Canada have more advanced technology used in ropelights Mine is 150 w pure heat, thats why it went black in some parts..Miscalculations and I don´t have thermostat at the moment I´m thinking of getting one for the next winter.I´m not that stupid to put led lights for heating purposes First I bought some regular x-mas lights and those didn´t produce any warmth at all, so I gave those to my mother for decorations and bought new ones. After christmas the light ropes were 3-4 times cheaper than before

[lucky1]

Well, then Bill must be correct that it went black from crossing over itself?

Since some rope lights obviously produce heat, I'll look around next Fall to get some.
They're longer than the heat tape I have.
Barb

[hardyjim]

It's important to use them to heat the whole area as they really aren't going to provide even heat to the whole palm.
What we are really talking about is a low cost low wattage way to heat up a very small enclosure.
When I tried my first umbrella g-house(49wX44h) with 2 Trachys inside,I used a rope light.
There was no rise in the temp,then I tried a 60 wt bulb,2-3f rise.
I finally settled on(that 1st year)a 150 wt heat bulb which added 10-15f on a good day.
I could cover with a tarp and plastic to add 25f +
The moral of the story is to use a remote sensor and see what your getting.

[serj]

My fortunei is survived! This picture was taken yesterday.

[BILL MA]

Nice Job Serj!
Looks totally unscathed by winter. I like all the seedlings around it too.

Bill

[serj]

Bill, you are right! All seedlings (including phoenix dactilifera) are OK!

[lucky1]

serj,
congratulations.
All look very healthy, as though you did not have winter.

Barb

[hardyjim]

Yep,looks great!

Can't wait to uncover my T.tesan seedling that has been buried under a pot,leaves and dirt for the whole winter.

[TerdalFarm]

You've all seen my outdoor Trachy. It looks horrible. However, the spear is still tight when I tug. (Ditto for the un-heated Butia.)

[lucky1]

I might (now) have a few to add to the "horrible list" myself...
Barb

[hardyjim]

Sorry to here that Barb
I will probably post a incomplete* obituary thread sometime in the next week.
With some it's to early to tell but there will be quite a few barrels on the list unfortunately.
I will be replacing some(barrels) in the next month so they can get set and flower on time in spring/early summer.



Another cold night last night,-6f officially,-4f in my micro-climate

Things will be"improving"starting tomorrow with highs up around freezing and above in the next few days.
Getting rid of this snow would improve our temps by at least 10f,to more normal highs,which should be in
the low to mid 40s as we finish out February.

[lucky1]

Too bad about your barrels, Jim.
The obituary, hopefully, is a short list this year with all you've done to protect them.
I'm afraid to look at my too-hasty planted out stuff. Will wait

Enjoy the coming warm-up...
you deserve it.

Barb

[BILL MA]

I second that you deserve some nice weather!!!
That's a pretty good micro climate too

Bill

[serj]

Jim, it is strange that you have such cold weather! I have +3 +7 C for five last days!